{"id":1885512,"date":"2026-04-16T14:00:00","date_gmt":"2026-04-16T11:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/?p=1885512"},"modified":"2026-04-16T14:00:00","modified_gmt":"2026-04-16T11:00:00","slug":"ronan-farrow-on-sam-altmans-unconstrained-relationship-with-the-truth","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/?p=1885512","title":{"rendered":"Ronan Farrow on Sam Altman\u2019s \u2018unconstrained\u2019 relationship with the truth"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><main id=\"content\"><\/p>\n<div class>\n<article>\n<div class=\"duet--article--lede duet--page-layout--feature-article\">\n<div class=\"duet--ledes--feature-lede olmxu70\">\n<div class=\"olmxu71\">\n<div class=\"olmxu76 olmxu77\">\n<div class=\"bu4cqq5 bu4cqq4\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ymtmqp7\">\n<div class=\"olmxu72 _1ymtmqp3\">\n<div class=\"olmxu73\">\n<div class=\"_1p1nf4x0 _1p1nf4x2\">\n<div class=\"_1p1nf4x3\"><span class=\"_13g9mks17\"><\/p>\n<ul 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All <!-- -->AI<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div id=\"follow-category-breadcrumb-dmcyOmNhdGVnb3J5OjU4\"><button aria-expanded=\"false\" aria-haspopup=\"true\"><span class=\"gnx4pm0 _4hoiss5 _1xwtict5 _1618ekm0\"><span class=\"_1ajq89ke _1ajq89k1 _1ajq89k0\"><\/span><span class=\"_1618ekm8\">Tech<\/span><\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<aside id=\"popover-dmcyOmNhdGVnb3J5OjU4-breadcrumb\" style=\"position:absolute;left:0;top:0\" class=\"_1wu3rm0 _6ytxv90\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm1\"><button class=\"_1wu3rm3\"><title>Close<\/title><\/button><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm5\">Tech<\/div>\n<p class=\"fv263x1\">Posts from this topic will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed.<\/p>\n<p><button class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm891 _1f7jm890 fv263x2 _1f7jm89g\"><span><title>Follow<\/title><\/span><span>Follow<\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<p class=\"fv263x4\"><a class=\"fv263x5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\">See All <!-- -->Tech<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><\/span><\/div>\n<div class>\n<h1 class=\"_8enl992 _8enl990 _8enl997 _1xwtictb _1xwtict9\">Ronan Farrow on Sam Altman\u2019s \u2018unconstrained\u2019  relationship with the truth<\/h1>\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup _8enl99i _8enl99g _1xwtictb _1xwtict1\">The head of OpenAI has a reputation for deception. <em>The New Yorker<\/em>\u2019s Ronan Farrow on why that matters.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_13g9mks2 _13g9mks0 _13g9mks21\">\n<div class=\"_13g9mks9 _13g9mksh\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-byline _1xwtictb _114qu8c0\"><span class><span>by<\/span> <!-- --> <span aria-expanded=\"false\" role=\"button\"><span id=\"follow-author-author_byline_lead-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx\" class=\"t0jcdf0 gnx4pm0 _114qu8c2 _114qu8c4 t0jcdf1\"><span class=\"t0jcdf2\"><span class=\"_1ajq89ke _1ajq89k1 _1ajq89k0\"><\/span><\/span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<aside id=\"popover-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx-author_byline_lead\" style=\"position:absolute;left:0;top:0\" class=\"_1wu3rm0 _6ytxv90\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm1\"><button class=\"_1wu3rm3\"><title>Close<\/title><\/button><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1bw37384\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Nilay Patel\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1bw37385 x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/author_profile_images\/195834\/NILAY_PATEL.0.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm5 _1bw37380\">Nilay Patel<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1bw37381\">\n<div class=\"_1bw37382\">Editor-in-Chief<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p class=\"fv263x1\">Posts from this author will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed.<\/p>\n<p><button class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm891 _1f7jm890 fv263x2 _1f7jm89g\"><span><title>Follow<\/title><\/span><span>Follow<\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<p class=\"fv263x4\"><a class=\"fv263x5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/authors\/nilay-patel\">See All by <!-- -->Nilay Patel<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<p><\/span><\/div>\n<p><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp5 tvl9dp1 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1xwtictb\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-16T14:00:00+00:00\">Apr 16, 2026, 2:00 PM UTC<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<div class=\"_13g9mksm _13g9mksw\">\n<div class=\"_13g9mksx _13g9mks15\"><span class=\"_13g9mks16 _13g9mks17\"><\/p>\n<ul class=\"duet--article--share-buttons a8vjfv0\">\n<li>\n<div class=\"a8vjfvo\"><button aria-label=\"Copy link\" class=\"a8vjfv3 a8vjfv1\"><title>Link<\/title><\/button><\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li><button aria-expanded=\"false\" aria-haspopup=\"true\" aria-label=\"Share article\" 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_1ymtmqp15\">\n<div class=\"_1t5ltw91\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--entry-body _9f4de40\">\n<div class=\"duet--ledes--standard-lede-bottom\">\n<div class=\"_1o1f7ku5\">\n<div class=\"_1gmcxs22 _1gmcxs20\">\n<div class=\"_1n017go0 _1n017go1\">\n<div class=\"_1n017go3\"><a class=\"_1n017go6\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/authors\/nilay-patel\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Nilay Patel\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"36\" height=\"36\" data-nimg=\"1\" class=\"_1n017go4\" style=\"color:transparent\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/author_profile_images\/195834\/NILAY_PATEL.0.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=96\"><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1n017go5\"><span aria-expanded=\"false\" role=\"button\"><span id=\"follow-author-standard_article_details-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx\" class=\"t0jcdf0 gnx4pm0 _114qu8c2 _114qu8c3 t0jcdf1\"><span class=\"t0jcdf2\"><span class=\"_1ajq89k1 _1ajq89k0\"><\/span><\/span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<aside id=\"popover-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx-standard_article_details\" style=\"position:absolute;left:0;top:0\" class=\"_1wu3rm0 _6ytxv90\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm1\"><button class=\"_1wu3rm3\"><title>Close<\/title><\/button><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1bw37384\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Nilay Patel\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1bw37385 x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/author_profile_images\/195834\/NILAY_PATEL.0.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm5 _1bw37380\">Nilay Patel<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1bw37381\"><\/div>\n<p class=\"fv263x1\">Posts from this author will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed.<\/p>\n<p><button class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm891 _1f7jm890 fv263x2 _1f7jm89g\"><span><title>Follow<\/title><\/span><span>Follow<\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<p class=\"fv263x4\"><a class=\"fv263x5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/authors\/nilay-patel\">See All by <!-- -->Nilay Patel<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<p> <span class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup _1n017go7\">is editor-in-chief of The Verge, host of the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/decoder-podcast-with-nilay-patel\"><b>Decoder podcast<\/b><\/a>, and co-host of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/the-vergecast\"><b>The Vergecast<\/b><\/a>.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"zephr-anchor\" class=\"_1ymtmqp11\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy2 _17nnmdy0 _17nnmdy7 _17nnmdy5 _1xwtict1 _17nnmdyb\">Today on <em>Decoder,<\/em> I\u2019m talking with Ronan Farrow, one of the biggest stars of investigative reporting working today. He <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/news\/news-desk\/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories\">broke the Harvey Weinstein story<\/a>, among many, many others. And just last week, he and co-author Andrew Marantz <a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/magazine\/2026\/04\/13\/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted\">published<\/a> an incredible deep-dive feature in <em>The New Yorker<\/em> about OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, his trustworthiness, and the rise of OpenAI itself.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">One note before we go any further here \u2014<em>The New Yorker<\/em> published that story and Ronan and I had this conversation before we knew the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/910890\/openai-sam-altman-second-home-attack-shooting\">full extent of the attacks<\/a> on Altman\u2019s home, so you won\u2019t hear us talk about that directly. But just to say it, I think violence of any kind is unacceptable, these attacks on Sam were unacceptable, and that the kind of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/911778\/ai-violence-sam-altman-home\">helplessness that people feel<\/a>, which leads to this kind of violence, is itself unacceptable, and it\u2019s worth a lot more scrutiny from both the industry and our political leaders. I hope that\u2019s clear.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--block-placement _1o279nj2 _1o279nj0 duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--highlight _1ymtmqpl kuxlcj0\">\n<div class=\"kuxlcj1\"><\/div>\n<div>\n<div style=\"position:relative\">\n<div class>\n<div class>\n<div style=\"background-image:none\" class=\"duet--media--content-warning ucljxw0\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--image-gallery-image kqz8fh0\" style=\"aspect-ratio:1\" id=\"dmcyOmltYWdlOjU5NQ==\"><a class=\"kqz8fh1\" href=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/uploads\/chorus_asset\/file\/24792604\/The_Verge_Decoder_Tileart.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0,0,100,100\" data-pswp-height=\"3000\" data-pswp-width=\"3000\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/uploads\/chorus_asset\/file\/24792604\/The_Verge_Decoder_Tileart.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"kuxlcj4\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1 kuxlcj7\"><em>Verge<\/em> subscribers, don\u2019t forget you get exclusive access to ad-free <em>Decoder<\/em> wherever you get your podcasts. Head <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/account\/podcasts\">here<\/a>. Not a subscriber? You can <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/subscribe\">sign up here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">All that said, there is a lot swirling around Altman that\u2019s fair game for rigorous reporting \u2014 the kind of reporting Ronan and Andrew set out to do. Thanks to the popularity of ChatGPT, Altman has emerged as the most visible figurehead of the AI industry, having turned a once nonprofit research lab into an almost trillion-dollar private company in just a few years. But the myth of Altman is deeply conflicted, equally defined both by his obvious dealmaking ability and his reported tendency to\u2026 well, lie to everyone around him.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The story is over 17,000 words long, and it contains arguably the definitive account of what happened in 2023 when the OpenAI board of directors <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2023\/11\/17\/23965982\/openai-ceo-sam-altman-fired\">very suddenly fired Altman<\/a> over his alleged lying, only for him to be almost instantly rehired. It\u2019s also a deep dive into Altman\u2019s personal life, his investments, his courting of Middle Eastern money, and his own reflections on his past behavior and character traits that led one source to say he was \u201cunconstrained by the truth.\u201d I really suggest you read the entire story; I suspect it will be referenced for many years to come.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Ronan talked to Altman many times over the 18 months he spent reporting this piece, and so one of the main things I was curious about was whether he sensed any change in Altman over that time. After all, a lot has happened in AI, in tech, and in the world over the past year and a half.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You\u2019ll hear Ronan talk about that very directly, as well as his sense that people have become much more willing to talk about Altman\u2019s ability to stretch the truth. People are starting to wonder, out loud and on the record, whether the behavior of people like Altman is concerning, not just for AI or tech but also for society\u2019s collective future.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Okay: Ronan Farrow on Sam Altman, AI, and the truth. Here we go.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--block-placement _1o279nj1 _1o279nj0 duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup _1h0hdr20\">\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><em>This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity. <\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Ronan Farrow, you\u2019re an investigative reporter and contributor to <\/strong><strong><em>The New Yorker<\/em><\/strong><strong>. Welcome to <\/strong><strong><em>Decoder<\/em><\/strong><strong>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I am very excited to talk to you. You just wrote a big piece for <\/strong><strong><em>The New Yorker<\/em><\/strong><strong>. It\u2019s a profile of Sam Altman and, sort of with it, OpenAI. My read of it is that, as all great features do, it, with rigorous reporting, validates a lot of feelings people have had about Sam Altman for a very long time. You\u2019ve obviously published it, you\u2019ve gotten reactions to it. How are you feeling about it right now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, I\u2019ve been heartened, actually, by the extent to which it\u2019s broken through in a time where the attention economy is so kind of schizophrenic and shallow. This is a story that, in my view, affects all of us. And when I spent a year and a half of my life, and my co-author, Andrew Marantz, also spent that time of his, really trying to do something forensic and meticulous, it\u2019s always because I feel like there are bigger structural issues that affect people beyond the individual and company at the heart of the story.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Sam Altman, against the backdrop of Silicon Valley hype culture and startups that balloon to massive valuations based on promises that may or may not come to pass in the future, and an increasing embrace of a founder culture that thinks telling different groups different conflicting things is a feature, not a bug\u2026Even against that backdrop, Sam Altman is an extraordinary case where everyone in Silicon Valley who expects those things can\u2019t stop talking about this question of his trustworthiness and his honesty.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We knew already that he was fired over some version of allegations of dishonesty or serial alleged lying. But extraordinarily, despite the fact that there\u2019s been wonderful reporting, Keach Hagey has <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2025\/05\/19\/books\/review\/empire-of-ai-karen-hao-the-optimist-keach-hagey.html\">done great work on this<\/a>. Karen Hao has <a href=\"https:\/\/www.penguinrandomhouse.com\/books\/743569\/empire-of-ai-by-karen-hao\/\">done great work on this<\/a>. There really wasn\u2019t a definitive understanding of the actual alleged proof points and the reasons why those have stayed out of the public eye.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So point number one is that I feel heartened by the fact that some of those gaps in our public knowledge, and even in the knowledge of Silicon Valley insiders, have now been filled a little bit more. Some of the reasons that there were gaps have been filled in a little bit more.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We report on cases where people inside this company really felt like things were covered up or deliberately not documented. One of the new things in this story is a pivotal law firm investigation by WilmerHale, which is obviously a fancy, credible, big law firm that did investigations of Enron and WorldCom, which, by the way, were all voluminous, like hundreds of pages published. WilmerHale did this investigation that was demanded by board members who had fired Altman as a condition of their departure when he got rid of them, and he came back. And extraordinarily \u2014 in the eyes of many legal experts I spoke to, and shockingly in the eyes of many people in this company \u2014 they kept it out of writing. All that ever emerged from that was an 800-word press release from OpenAI that described what happened as a breakdown in trust. And we confirmed that this was kept to oral briefings.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">There are cases where, for instance, a board member seemingly wants to vote against the conversion from OpenAI\u2019s original nonprofit form into a for-profit entity, and it\u2019s recorded as an abstention. There\u2019s like a lawyer in the meeting saying, \u201cWell, that could trigger too much scrutiny.\u201d And the person who wants to vote against gets recorded as an abstention to all appearances. There\u2019s a factual dispute. OpenAI claims otherwise, as you might imagine. These are all cases where you have a company that, by its own account, holds our future in its hands.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The safety stakes are so acute that they have not gone away. This is the reason this company was founded as a nonprofit focused on safety, and where things were being obscured in a way that credible people around this found it less than professional. And you couple that with a backdrop where there\u2019s so little political appetite for meaningful regulation. I think it\u2019s a very combustible situation.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The point for me is not just that Sam Altman deserves these questions so acutely. It\u2019s also that any of these guys in this field, and many of the key figures, exhibit, if not this particular idiosyncratic, alleged lying-all-the-time trait, certainly some degree of a race-to-the-bottom mentality, where the people who were safetyists have watered down those commitments and everyone-is-in-a-race posture.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think, as we look at recent leaks out of Anthropic, there\u2019s a person who poses the question of who should have their finger on the button in this piece. The answer is, if we don\u2019t have meaningful oversight, I think we have to be asking serious questions and trying to surface as much information as we can about all of these guys. So I\u2019ve been heartened by what feels like a meaningful conversation about that, or the beginnings of one.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The reason I asked it that way is that you worked on this for a year and a half. You talked to, I believe, 100 people with your co-author, Andrew. That\u2019s a long time for a story to cook. I think about the last year and a half in AI in particular, and boy, have the attitudes and values of all these characters shifted very quickly. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Maybe none more so than Sam Altman, who started off as the default winner because they had released ChatGPT and everyone thought that would just take over for Google. And then Google responded, which seemed to surprise them that Google would try to protect its business, maybe one of the best businesses in tech history, if not business history. Anthropic decided that it would focus on the enterprise. It seems to be taking a commanding lead there because the enterprise use of AI is so high.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Now, OpenAI is <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/908513\/the-vibes-are-off-at-openai\"><strong>refocusing its product away<\/strong><\/a><strong> from \u201cwe\u2019re going to take on Google\u201d to Codex, and they\u2019re going to take on the enterprise. I just can\u2019t quite tell whether, during the course of your reporting over the last year and a half, if it feels like the characters you were talking to changed? Like their attitudes and their values, did those change?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yes. I think first of all, that the critique that is explored in this piece, coming from many people inside these companies at this point \u2014 that this is an industry that, despite the existential stakes, is descending into something of a race to the bottom on safety and where speed is trumping everything else \u2014 that concern has grown more acute. And I think those concerns have been more validated as the past year and a half has transpired. Simultaneously, attitudes about Sam Altman have specifically changed. When we started talking to sources for this, people were really, really leery of being quoted about this and going on the record about this.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">By the end of our reporting, you have a body of reporting where people are talking about this very openly and explicitly, and you have board members saying things like, \u201cHe\u2019s a pathological liar. He\u2019s a sociopath.\u201d There\u2019s a range of perspectives from, \u201cThis is dangerous given the safety stakes, and we need leaders of this tech that have elevated integrity,\u201d all the way up to like, \u201cForget the safety stakes, this is behavior that is untenable for any executive of any major company, that it just creates too much dysfunction.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So the conversation has become much more explicit in a way that feels maybe belated, but is heartening in one sense. And Sam Altman, to his credit\u2026 The piece is very fair and even generous, I would say, to Sam. This is not the kind of piece where there was a lot of \u201cgot you\u201d stuff. I spent many, many hours on the phone with him as we were finishing this up and really heard him out.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">As you can imagine, in a piece like this, not everything makes it in. Some of those cases in this one were because I was listening sincerely. And if Sam was actually making an argument that I felt carried water, that something, even if it was true, could be sensationalist, I really erred on the side of keeping this forensic and measured. So I think that is being received rightly, and I just hope this factual record that\u2019s accumulated over this period of time can trigger a more bracing conversation about the need for oversight.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That\u2019s actually my next question. I think you talked to Sam a dozen times over the course of reporting this story. Again, that\u2019s a lot of conversations over a long period of time. Did you think Sam changed over the course of the reporting over the past year and a half?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah. I think one of the most interesting subplots in this is that Sam Altman is also talking about this trait more explicitly than he has in the past. The posture of Sam in this piece is not like, \u201cThere\u2019s nothing there, this is not true; I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re talking about.\u201d The posture he has is that he says this is attributable to a people-pleasing tendency and a kind of conflict aversion. He\u2019s acknowledging that it caused problems for him, particularly earlier in his career.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">He is saying, \u201cWell, I am moving past that, or have to some extent moved past that.\u201d I think what\u2019s really interesting to me is the contingent of people we talked to who were not just sort of safety advocates, not just the underlying technical researchers who very often tend to have these acute safety concerns, but also pragmatic, big-time investors. They are backers of Sam\u2019s, who, in some cases, look at this question and talk about even having played a key role in his coming back after the firing. Now, on this question of whether he\u2019s reformed, and to what extent is that change meaningful, they say, \u201cWell, we gave him the benefit of the doubt at the time.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019m thinking of one prominent investor in particular who said, \u201cBut since then, it seems clear he wasn\u2019t taken out behind the woodshed,\u201d which was the phrase that this one used, to the extent that was necessary. As a result, it seems like this is now a stable trait. We\u2019re seeing this in an ongoing way. You can look at some of OpenAI\u2019s biggest business relationships and the way they kind of carry the weight of that mistrust in an ongoing way.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Like with Microsoft, you talk to executives over there, and they have really acute and recently catalyzed concerns. There\u2019s this instance where, on the same day OpenAI is reaffirming its exclusivity with Microsoft with respect to underlying stateless AI models it\u2019s also <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/885958\/openai-amazon-nvidia-softback-110-billion-investment\">announcing a new deal with Amazon<\/a> that\u2019s to do with selling enterprise solutions for building AI agents that are stateful, meaning they have memory.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You talk to Microsoft people, and they\u2019re like, \u201cThat\u2019s not possible to do without interacting with the underlying stuff that we have an exclusivity deal on.\u201d So that\u2019s just one of many small examples where this trait has tendrils into ongoing business activity all the time and is a subject of active concern within OpenAI\u2019s board, within its executive suite, and in the wider tech community.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You keep saying that \u201ctrait.\u201d There\u2019s a line in the story that to me feels like the thesis, and it\u2019s a description of the trait you\u2019re describing. It\u2019s that \u201cSam Altman is unconstrained by the truth\u201d and that he has \u201ctwo traits that are almost never seen in the same person: the first is a strong desire to please people, to be liked in any given interaction, and the second is an almost sociopathic lack of concern for the consequences that may come from deceiving someone.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I have to tell you, I read that sentence 500 times, and I tried to imagine always saying what people wanted to be liked and then not being upset when they felt lied to. And I could not make my emotional state understand how those things can exist in the same person. You\u2019ve talked to Sam a lot, and you\u2019ve talked to people who have experienced these traits. How does he do it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah. It\u2019s interesting on a human level because I do approach bodies of reporting like this with a real focus on humanizing whoever\u2019s at the heart of it and seeking deep understanding and empathy. When I kind of tried to approach this from a more human standpoint and say, \u201cHey, this would be devastating for me if so many people that I\u2019ve worked with said I\u2019m a pathological liar. How do you carry that weight? How do you talk about that in therapy? What is the story you tell yourself about that?\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I got some sort of, in my view, maybe West Coast platitudes about that like, \u201cYeah, I like breath work.\u201d But not a lot of the kind of bracing sense of deep self-confrontation that I think a lot of us would probably have if we were seeing this kind of feedback about our behavior and our treatment of people.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think that actually goes to the broader answer to the question, too. Sam asserts that this trait has caused problems, but also that it\u2019s part of what has empowered him to accelerate OpenAI\u2019s growth so much that he is able to unite and please different groups of people. He\u2019s constantly convincing all of these conflicting constituencies that what they care about is what he cares about. And that can be a really useful skill for a founder. I\u2019ve talked to investors who then say, \u201cWell, maybe it\u2019s a less useful skill for actually running a company because it sows so much discord.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But on the Sam personal side, I think the thing that I pick up on when I try to connect on a human level is the apparent lack of deeper confrontation, reflection, and self-accountability, which also informs that superpower or liability for a company preparing for an IPO.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">He is someone who, in the words of one former board member named Sue Yoon, who\u2019s on the record in the piece saying that to the point of \u201cfecklessness\u201d is the phrase she uses, is able to really believe the shifting reality of his sales pitches or is able to convince himself of them. Or at least if he doesn\u2019t believe them, he is able to bluster through them without meaningful self-doubt.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think the thing that you\u2019re talking about, where you or I might, as we\u2019re saying the thing and realizing that it conflicts with the other assurance we\u2019ve made, kind of have a moment of freezing up or checking ourselves. I think that doesn\u2019t happen with him. And there\u2019s a wider Silicon Valley hype culture and founder culture that kind of embraces that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>It\u2019s funny. <\/strong><strong><em>The Verge<\/em><\/strong><strong> is built on what amounts to a product reviews program. It\u2019s the heart of what we do here. I hold a trillion dollars of Apple R&amp;D once a year and say, \u201cThis phone is a seven.\u201d And it sort of legitimizes all of our reporting and our opinions elsewhere. We have an evaluative function, and we spend so much time just looking at the AI products and saying, \u201cDo they work?\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That feels like it\u2019s missing from a lot of the conversation about AI as it is today. There\u2019s endless conversation about what it might be able to do, how dangerous it might be. And then you drill down, and you say, \u201cDoes it actually do the thing it\u2019s supposed to do today?\u201d In some cases, the answer is yes. But in many, many cases, the answer is no.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That feels like it connects to the hype culture you\u2019re describing and also to the sense that, well, if you say it\u2019s going to do something and it doesn\u2019t, and someone feels bad, that\u2019s fine because we\u2019re onto the next thing. That\u2019s in the past. And in AI in particular, Sam is so good at making the grand promises.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Just this week, I think the same day as your story was published, OpenAI <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/column\/908880\/openai-made-economic-proposals-heres-what-dc-thinks-of-them\"><strong>released a policy document<\/strong><\/a><strong> that said we have to rethink the social contract and have AI efficiency stipends from the government. This is a grand promise about how some technology might shape the future of the world and how we live, and all of that relies on the technology working in exactly the way that maybe it\u2019s promised to work or it should work. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Did you ever find Sam doubting AI turning into AGI or superintelligence or getting to the finish line? Because that\u2019s the thing that I wonder about the most. Is there any reflection about whether this core technology can do all of the things that they say it can do?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">It\u2019s exactly the right set of questions. There are credible technologists that we spoke to in this body of reporting \u2014 and obviously Sam Altman is not one; he\u2019s a business person \u2014 who say the way that Sam talks about the timeline for this tech is just way off. There are blog posts going back a few years where Sam is saying, \u201cWe\u2019ve already reached the event horizon. AGI is basically here. Superintelligence is around the corner. We\u2019re going to be on other planets. We\u2019re going to be <a href=\"https:\/\/blog.samaltman.com\/abundant-intelligence\">curing all forms of cancer<\/a>.\u201d Truly, I\u2019m not embellishing.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The cancer one is actually interesting, that Sam is hyping up the person who <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/896878\/ai-did-not-cure-this-dogs-cancer\"><strong>theoretically cured their dog\u2019s cancer with ChatGPT<\/strong><\/a><strong>, and that simply did not happen. They talked to ChatGPT, and that helped them guide some researchers who actually did the work, but the one-to-one, this tool cured this dog is not actually the story.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019m glad you raised that point because I want to go on to this bigger point about when both the potential and the risk of the technology are really going to vest. But it\u2019s worth mentioning these little asides that constantly happen from Sam Altman, where he seems to embody this trait all over again.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I mean, to use the example of the WilmerHale report, where we had this information that had been kept out of writing, and wanted to know whether the oral brief along the way was given to anyone other than the two board members Sam helped install to oversee it. And he said, \u201cYeah, yeah, no, I believe it was given to everyone who joined the board after.\u201d And we have a person with direct knowledge of the situation saying that it is simply a lie. And that really does appear to be the case, that it is untrue. If we want to be generous, perhaps he was misinformed.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">There are a lot of these casual assurances. And I use that example in part because that\u2019s a great example of dissembling, let\u2019s call it, that can have real consequences legally. I don\u2019t need to tell you, under Delaware corporate law, if this company IPOs, shareholders could, under section 220, complain about this and demand underlying documentation. There are already board members saying things like, \u201cWell, wait a minute, that briefing should have happened.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So these things that seem to jump out of his mouth all the time, they can have real market-moving effects, real effects for OpenAI. Bringing it back to the kind of <a href=\"https:\/\/cdn.openai.com\/pdf\/561e7512-253e-424b-9734-ef4098440601\/Industrial%20Policy%20for%20the%20Intelligence%20Age.pdf\">utopian hype language<\/a> that\u2019s resurfaced, I think not coincidentally on the day this piece came out, it also effects all of us, because the dangers are so acute with respect to the way it\u2019s being deployed in weaponry, the way it\u2019s being used to identify chemical warfare agents, the disinformation potential, and because of the way in which the utopian hype does seem to be prompting a lot of credible economists to say, \u201cThis has all the signs of a bubble.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Even <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/759965\/sam-altman-openai-ai-bubble-interview\">Sam Altman has said<\/a>, \u201cSomeone\u2019s going to lose a lot of money here.\u201d That could really crater a lot of American and global economic growth, if there\u2019s like a true puncturing of a bubble involving all of these companies doing deals with each other, going all in on AI while borrowing so heavily. So what Sam Altman says matters, and I think the preponderance of people around him, you mentioned we talked to more than a hundred, it was actually well over a hundred. We had a conversation at the finish line where it\u2019s like, \u201cWould it be too petty to say it\u2019s like this much higher number?\u201d And we were like, \u201cYeah, let\u2019s downplay. We\u2019ll play it cool.\u201d But there were so many people and such a significant majority of them saying, \u201cThis is a concern.\u201d And I think that\u2019s all why.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Let me ask you about that number. As you mentioned, people got more and more open with the concerns as time went on. It feels like the pressure around the bubble \u2014 the race to win, to pay off all this investment, to emerge as the winner, to IPO \u2014 has changed a lot of attitudes. It certainly created more pressure on Sam and OpenAI.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>We published a story this week just <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/908513\/the-vibes-are-off-at-openai\"><strong>about the vibes of OpenAI<\/strong><\/a><strong>. Your story is part of it, but massive staffing changes in the executive ranks at OpenAI \u2014 people are coming and going. The researchers are all headed away, largely to Anthropic, which I think is really interesting. You can just see this company is feeling the pressure, and it is responding to that pressure in some way.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>But then I think back to Sam getting fired. This is just memorable for me. It\u2019s memorable for no one else, but I took a source call at the Bronx Zoo at 7PM on a Friday, and it was someone saying they\u2019re going to try to get Sam back. And then <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2023\/11\/18\/23967199\/breaking-openai-board-in-discussions-with-sam-altman-to-return-as-ceo\"><strong>we spent the weekend chasing that story down<\/strong><\/a><strong>. And I was just like, \u201cI\u2019m at the zoo. What do you want me to do here?\u201d And the answer was, \u201cStay on the phone.\u201d Well, my daughter was like, \u201cGet off the phone.\u201d And that\u2019s what I did. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>It was ride or die to get Sam back. That company was like, \u201cNo, we\u2019re not letting the board fire Sam Altman.\u201d The investors, they\u2019re quoted in your piece, \u201cWe went to war,\u201d I think, is the Thrive Capital position, \u201cto get Sam back.\u201d Microsoft went to war to get Sam back. It\u2019s later, and now everyone\u2019s like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to IPO. We got to the finish line. We got our guy back, and he\u2019s going to get us to the finish line. We\u2019re concerned he\u2019s a liar.\u201d <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Why was it a war to get him back then? Because it doesn\u2019t seem like anything has actually changed. You talk about the memos that Ilya Sutskever and [Anthropic CEO] Dario Amodei kept while they were contemporaries of Sam Altman. Ilya\u2019s number one concern was that Sam is a liar.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>None of that has changed. So why was it war to bring him back then? And now that we\u2019re at the finish line, it seems like all the concerns are out in the open.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, first of all, sorry to your daughter and my partner and all the other people around the journalists.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>[Laughs] It was quite a weekend for everyone.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah, it does take over one\u2019s life, and this story definitely has mine, over the last period of time. It actually relates to this theme of journalism and access to information, I think. The investors who went to war for Sam and all played roles in making sure he came back, and the board that had been specifically designed to protect a nonprofit\u2019s mission to put safety over growth and to fire an executive if they couldn\u2019t be trusted with that, they went away. That was all because, yes, the market incentives were there, right?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Sam was able to convince people, \u201cWell, the company\u2019s just going to fall apart.\u201d But the reason he had support was a lack of information. Those investors, in many cases, now say, \u201cI look back, and I think I should have had more concerns if I had known fully what the claims were and what the concerns were.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Not all of them; opinions vary, and we quote a range of opinions, but there are significant ones who were acting on very partial info. The board that fired Sam was, in the words of one person who used to be on the board, \u201cvery JV,\u201d and they fumbled the ball hard. And we document the underlying complaints, and people can decide for themselves whether it accumulates into the kind of urgent concern they felt it was, but that argument and that information were not being presented.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">They received what some of them now acknowledge as bad legal advice. To describe it, you\u2019ll remember the quote, and probably a lot of your listeners and viewers will remember the quote as <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2023\/11\/17\/23965982\/openai-ceo-sam-altman-fired\">a lack of candor<\/a>. That was what it was reduced to, and then they essentially wouldn\u2019t take calls.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>They would not take calls. I\u2019m sure you tried. Everyone I know tried, and it got to the point where, as a journalist, you\u2019re not supposed to give your sources advice, but I was like, \u201cThis will go away if you don\u2019t start explaining yourself.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And that\u2019s what happened. Forget journalists. You had Satya Nadella saying, \u201cWhat the hell happened? I can\u2019t get anyone to explain to me.\u201d And that\u2019s the company\u2019s major financial backer. And then you have Satya calling [LinkedIn co-founder] Reid Hoffman and Reid calling around and saying, \u201cI don\u2019t know what the fuck happened.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">They\u2019re understandably in that void of information, looking for the traditional non-AI indicators that would justify such an urgent, sudden firing. Like, okay, was it sex crimes? Was it embezzlement? And the entire subtle, but I think meaningful, argument that this tech is different and that this kind of a steady accumulation of smaller betrayals could have meaningful stakes both for this business and maybe for the world, was largely lost. So capitalist incentives won out, but also the people who made it went out and were not always operating with complete information.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I want to just ask about the \u201cwhat everyone thought it was\u201d aspect for one moment, because I certainly saw the news, and I said, \u201cOh, something bad must have happened.\u201d You\u2019ve done a lot of #MeToo reporting, famously. You <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.newyorker.com\/news\/news-desk\/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories\"><strong>broke the Harvey Weinstein story<\/strong><\/a><strong>. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You spent a lot of time reporting on these claims that I think you decided were ultimately unfounded: that Altman sexually assaulted minors or hired sex workers, or even murdered an OpenAI whistleblower. I mean, you are the person who can report this stuff the most rigorously. Did you decide that it came to nothing?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, look, I\u2019m not in the business of saying something has come to nothing. What I can say is I spent months looking at these claims and did not find corroboration for them. And it was striking to me that these guys, these companies that have so much power over our futures, truly are spending a disproportionate amount of their time and resources <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/column\/863319\/highlights-musk-v-altman-openai\">in a childish mud fight<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">One executive describes it as \u201cShakespearean.\u201d The amount of private investigator money and the opposition dossiers being compiled is relentless. And the unfortunate thing is that the kind of salacious stuff, which gets parroted by Sam\u2019s competitors, is just assumed fact, right? There\u2019s this allegation that he pursues underage boys, and at many cocktail parties in Silicon Valley, you hear this. On the conference circuit, I\u2019ve heard it just repeated by credible, prominent executives: \u201cEverybody knows this is a fact.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The sad thing is that I talk about where this comes from, the various vectors by which it\u2019s transmitted. Elon Musk and his associates are seemingly pushing really hardcore dossiers that kind of amount to nothing. They\u2019re vaporous when you actually start to look at the underlying claims. The sad thing is that it really obscures the more evidence-based critiques here that I think really deserve urgent oversight and consideration.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The other theme that really comes through in the story is almost a sense of fear that Sam has so many friends \u2014 he\u2019s invested in so many companies from his previous role as CEO of Y Combinator, just to his personal investing, some of which are in direct conflict with his role as CEO of OpenAI \u2014 and there\u2019s silence around him.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>It struck me as I was reading one line in particular. You describe Ilya Sutskever\u2019s memos, and they\u2019re just out in Silicon Valley. Everyone calls them the Ilya memos. But there\u2019s even silence around that. They\u2019re passed around, but they\u2019re not discussed. Where do you think that comes from? Is it fear? Is it a desire to get angel investment? Where does that come from?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think it\u2019s a lot of cowardice, I\u2019ll be honest. Having reported on national security stories where the sources are whistleblowers who stand to lose everything and face prosecution, they still do the right thing and talk about things to create accountability. I\u2019ve worked on the sex crimes-related stories that you mentioned, where sources are deeply traumatized and fear a very personal kind of retribution.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">In many cases around this beat, you\u2019re dealing with people with their own profile and power. They\u2019re either famous people themselves or they\u2019re surrounded by famous people. They have robust business lives. In my view, it is actually very low exposure for them to talk about this stuff. And thankfully, the needle is moving as we talked about earlier, and people are now talking more.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But for such a long time, people really just shut up about it because I think the Silicon Valley culture is just so ruthlessly self-interested and ruthlessly business and growth-oriented. So I think this afflicts even some of the people who were involved in firing Sam, where you saw in the days after, yes, one factor that led to him coming back and the firing of old board members was that he rallied investors who were confused to his cause.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But another is that so many other people around it who had the concerns and voiced them urgently just folded like napkins and changed their tune the moment they saw the wind was blowing the other way, and they wanted in on the profit train.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">It\u2019s pretty dark, honestly, from my standpoint as a reporter.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Some of those people are Mira Murati, who, I believe, for 20 minutes was the new CEO of OpenAI. She was then replaced. It was a very complicated dynamic, and obviously, Sam came back. The other person is Ilya Sutskever, who was one of the votes to remove Sam, and then he changed his mind, or at least said he changed his mind, and then <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2024\/5\/14\/24156920\/openai-chief-scientist-ilya-sutskever-leaves\"><strong>he left to start his own company<\/strong><\/a><strong>. Do you know what made him change his mind? Was it just money?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, and to be clear, I\u2019m not singling those two out. There are other board members who were involved in the firing who also fell very silent after. I think it\u2019s like a wider collective problem. These are, in some cases, people who had the moral fiber to sound alarms and take radical action, and that is to be commended. And that\u2019s how you assure accountability. That could have helped a lot of people who are affected by this technology. It could have helped an industry to remain more meaningfully safety-focused.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But dealing with whistleblowers and people who try to prompt that accountability a lot, you also see that it takes the fiber of sticking it out and standing by your convictions. And this industry is truly full of people who just do not stand by their convictions.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Even though they think that they\u2019re building a digital God that will somehow either eliminate all labor or create more labor, or something will happen.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, that\u2019s the thing. So the culture of not standing by your convictions and all ethical concerns falling by the wayside the moment there\u2019s any heat or anything that could threaten your own standing in the business is maybe all well and good to some extent for business-as-usual companies that are making whatever kind of widget.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But these are also the same people who are saying, \u201cThis could literally kill us all.\u201d And again, you don\u2019t have to go to the <em>Terminator<\/em> Skynet extreme. There is a set of risks that are already materializing. It is real, and they are right to warn about that, but you\u2019d have to have someone else armchair psychologize how those two things can live in the same people where they\u2019re sounding the urgent warnings, they\u2019re maybe putting a toe in and trying to do something, and then they\u2019re just folding and falling silent.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">That is precisely why you can have these kinds of instances of things being kept out of writing and things being swept under the rug, and no one talking about it this openly for years after the fact.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The natural, responsible party here would not be the CEOs of these companies; it would be governments. In the United States, maybe it\u2019s state governments, maybe it\u2019s the federal government. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Certainly, these companies all want to be global. There are lots of global implications here. I watched OpenAI, Google, and Anthropic all <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2023\/10\/30\/23914507\/biden-ai-executive-order-regulation-standards\"><strong>goad the Biden administration into releasing an AI executive order<\/strong><\/a><strong>. It was pretty toothless in the end. It just said they had to talk about what their models were capable of and release some safety testing. And then they all backed Trump, and Trump came in and <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2025\/1\/21\/24348504\/donald-trump-ai-safety-executive-order-rescind\"><strong>wiped all that out<\/strong><\/a><strong> and said, \u201cWe have to be competitive. It\u2019s a free-for-all. Go for it.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>At the same time, they\u2019re all trying to raise funds from Middle Eastern countries that have lots of oil money and want to change their economies. Those are politicians. I feel like politicians should definitely understand someone is talking out of both sides of their mouth, and they\u2019re not going to be too upset if someone\u2019s disappointed in the end, but the politicians are getting taken for a ride, too. Why do you think that is?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">This is really, I think, why the piece matters in my view and why it was worth spending all this time and detail on. We are in an environment where the systems that, as you say, should be providing oversight are just hollowed out. That\u2019s a <a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Citizens_United_v._FEC\">post-<em>Citizens United<\/em> America<\/a>, where the flow of money is so unfettered, and it\u2019s a particular concentration of that problem around AI, where there are these PACs that are proliferating and flooding money into quashing meaningful regulation at both a state and a federal level.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You have [OpenAI co-founder] Greg Brockman, Sam\u2019s second in command, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/867947\/openai-president-greg-brockman-trump-super-pac\">directly contributing<\/a> in a major way to a couple of those. It leads to a situation where there really is capture of legislators and potential regulators, and that is a hard spiral to get out of. The sad thing is, I think that there are simple policy moves, some of which are being trialed elsewhere in the world, that would help with some of these accountability problems.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You could have more mandatory pre-deployment safety testing, which is something that is already happening in Europe for frontier models. You could have more stringent written public record requirements for the kinds of internal investigations where we saw things being kept out of writing in this case. You could have a more robust set of national security review mechanisms for the kinds of Middle Eastern infrastructure ambitions that Sam Altman was pushing.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">As you say, he was doing this bait and switch with the Biden administration, saying, \u201cRegulate us, regulate us,\u201d and helping them craft an executive order, and then the moment Trump gets in, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/2025\/1\/21\/24348816\/openai-softbank-ai-data-center-stargate-project\">truly in the very first days<\/a>, just going no holds barred, \u201cLet\u2019s accelerate and let\u2019s build a massive data center campus in Abu Dhabi.\u201d You could have, this is a really simple one, like whistleblower protections. There is no federal statute protecting AI company employees who disclose these kinds of safety concerns that are being aired in this piece.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We have cases where Jan Leike, who was a senior safety guy at OpenAI, was leading super alignment at the company. He writes to the board, essentially whistleblower material, saying the company is going off the rails on its safety mission. Those are the kinds of people who should actually have an oversight body they can go to, and they should have explicit statutory protections of the kinds we see in other sectors. This is simple to replicate a Sarbanes-Oxley-style regime.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think that despite how acute the problem is of Silicon Valley assuming control of all of the levers of power, and despite how hollowed out some of these institutions that might provide oversight and guardrails are, I still do believe in the basic math of democracy and of self-interested politicians. And there is more and more polling data emerging that a majority of Americans think that the concerns, questions, or risks of AI currently outweigh the benefits.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So I think the flood of money into politics from AI, it\u2019s within all of our power to make that a source of a question mark with respect to politicians. When Americans go to vote, they should be scrutinizing whether the people they vote for, especially if they are uncritical and anti-regulation, given all these concerns, are bankrolled by big tech special interests. So I think if people can read pieces like this, listen to podcasts like this, and care enough to think critically about their decisions as voters, there is a real opportunity to generate a constituency in Washington of representatives who keep an eye on and force oversight.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That might be one of the most optimistic things I\u2019ve ever heard anyone say about the current AI industry. I appreciate it. I\u2019m obsessed with the <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/891724\/nbc-news-march-2026-poll-ai-ice\"><strong>polling that you\u2019re talking about<\/strong><\/a><strong>. There\u2019s a lot of it now. It\u2019s all pretty consistent, and it looks like the more young people, in particular, are exposed to AI, the <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/ai-artificial-intelligence\/909687\/gen-z-doesnt-like-ai-gallup\"><strong>more distrustful and angry they are about it<\/strong><\/a><strong>. That\u2019s the valence of all the polling. And I look at that, and I think, well, yeah, smart politicians would just run against that. They would just say, \u201cWe\u2019re going to hold big tech accountable.\u201d <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Then I think about the past 20 years, a politician saying they\u2019re going to hold big tech accountable, and I\u2019m struggling to find even one moment of big tech being held accountable. The only thing that makes me think this might be different is, well, you actually have to build the data centers, and you can vote against that, and you can petition against that, and you can protest against that.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I think there\u2019s a politician who just had their house shot at <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.nbcnews.com\/news\/us-news\/indianapolis-data-center-city-councilor-home-shot-rcna267156\"><strong>because they voted for a data center<\/strong><\/a><strong>. The tension is reaching, I would call it, a fever pitch. You\u2019ve described the insularity of Silicon Valley. This is a closed ecosystem. It feels like they think they can run the world. They\u2019re putting a ton of money into politics, and they\u2019re running up against the reality that people don\u2019t love the products, which doesn\u2019t give them a lot of cover. The more they use the products, the more upset they are, and the politicians are beginning to see there are real consequences to supporting the tech industry over the people they represent. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You\u2019ve talked to so many people. Do you think it is possible for the tech industry to learn the lesson that is right in front of them?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You say it feels like they think they can run the world without accountability. I don\u2019t even think that needs the \u201cfeels like\u201d qualifier. I mean, you look at the language Peter Thiel is using, it\u2019s explicit. Of course, that\u2019s an extreme example. And Sam Altman, though he is close with and informed by Thiel\u2019s ideology to some extent, is a very different kind of person who might sound different and more measured up to a point.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But I do think the wider ideology that you get from Thiel, which is basically: We\u2019re done with democracy, we don\u2019t need it anymore. We have so much that we just want to build our own little bunkers. We\u2019re not dealing with the Carnegies anymore or the Rockefellers anymore, where they\u2019re bad guys, but they feel they need to participate in a social contract and build things for people. There\u2019s a real nihilism that\u2019s set in.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And I do think it\u2019s just been a mutually reinforcing spiral in recent American history of moguls and private companies acquiring super governmental power while democratic institutions that might hold them accountable are hollowed out. I do not feel optimistic about the idea that those guys might just wake up one day and think, \u201cHuh, actually maybe we do need to participate in society and help build things for people.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I mean, you look at like the microcosmic example of The Giving Pledge, where there was a moment where it was seemly to be charitable, and that moment is now past and even ridiculed. That is a problem, the broader problem of lack of accountability that I think can only be solved extrinsically. That has to be voters mobilizing and resurrecting the power of government oversight. And you\u2019re exactly right to say that the main vector through which people could maybe achieve that is local. It\u2019s to do with where infrastructure is being built.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You mentioned some of the white-hot tension around this that\u2019s leading to violence and threats, and obviously, nobody should be violent or threatening. And I\u2019m also not here to make specific policy recommendations other than to just present some of the policy steps that seem basic and are working elsewhere in the world, right? Or those who have worked in other sectors. I\u2019m not here to say which of those should be executed and how.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I do think something needs to happen, and it needs to be external, not just trusting these companies. Because right now we have a situation where the companies that are developing the tech and are equipped best to understand the risks, and in fact are the ones warning us of the risks, are also the ones with nothing but incentive to go fast and ignore those risks. And you just don\u2019t have anything to counterbalance that. So whatever reforms might take in terms of specifics, something has to run up against that. And I do still return to that optimism that the people still matter.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I generally buy your argument. Let me just make the one tiny counterargument that I think I can articulate. The other thing that could happen outside of the ballot box is that the bubble pops, right? That not all these companies get to the finish line, and that there isn\u2019t product market fit for consumer AI applications. And again, I don\u2019t quite see it yet, but I\u2019m a consumer tech reviewer, and maybe I just have higher standards than everybody else.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>There is product market fit in the business world, right? Having a bunch of AI agents write a bunch of software seems to be a real market for these tools. And you can read the arguments from these companies saying, \u201cWe\u2019ve solved coding, and that means we can solve anything. If we can make software, we can solve any problems.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I think there are real limits to the things software can do. That\u2019s great in the business world. Software can\u2019t solve every problem in reality, but they have to get there. They got to finish the job, and maybe not everybody makes it to the finish line. And there is a crash, and this bubble pops, and maybe OpenAI or Anthropic or xAI, one of these companies fails, and all this investment goes away.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Do you think that would affect this? Actually, let me ask the first question first. OpenAI is right on the cusp of an IPO. There are a lot of doubts about Sam as a leader. Do you think they\u2019re going to make it to the finish line?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019m not going to prognosticate, but I think you raise an important point, which is that market incentives do matter internally to Silicon Valley, and the precarity of the current bubble dynamics does stand to interrupt the, again, potentially, according to critics, race to the bottom on safety.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I would also add to that, if you look at historical precedence where there\u2019s a similarly and seemingly impenetrable set of market incentives and potentially deleterious effects for the public, there\u2019s impact litigation. And you see that as an area of concern lately. Sam Altman is out there this week <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wired.com\/story\/openai-backs-bill-exempt-ai-firms-model-harm-lawsuits\/\">endorsing legislation that would shield AI companies<\/a> from some of the types of liability that OpenAI has been exposed to in wrongful death suits, for instance. Of course, there\u2019s a desire to have that shield from liability.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think that the courts can still be a meaningful mechanism, and it\u2019ll be really interesting to see how these suits shape up. You already saw, for instance, the class-action suit, of which I and many, many other authors I know are members, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/news\/775230\/anthropic-piracy-class-action-lawsuit-settlement-rejected\">against Anthropic for their use of books that were under copyright<\/a>. If there are smart legal minds and plaintiffs who care, as we\u2019ve historically seen in cases from big tobacco to big energy, you can also get some guardrails and some incentives to slow down, be careful, or protect people that way.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>It does feel like the entire cost structure of the AI industry hangs on a very, very charitable interpretation of fair use. Doesn\u2019t come up enough. The cost structure of these companies could spiral out of control if they have to pay you and everyone else whose work they\u2019ve taken, but it\u2019s inconvenient to think about, so we just don\u2019t think about it. Right next to that, all of these products are now running at a loss. Like today, they\u2019re all running at a loss. They\u2019re burning more money than they can make. At some point, they have to flip the switch.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Sam is a businessman. As you\u2019ve mentioned several times, he\u2019s not a technologist. He\u2019s a business person. Do you think he\u2019s ready to flip the switch and say, \u201cWe\u2019re going to make a dollar?\u201d Because when I ask, \u201cDo you think OpenAI is going to make it?\u201d It\u2019s when they\u2019ve got to make a dollar. And so far, Sam has made all of his dollars by asking other people for their money instead of having his companies make money.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, that\u2019s a big lingering question for Silicon Valley, for investors, for the public. You see some statements and moves out of OpenAI that seem to evince a kind of panic about that. Shutting down Sora, shutting down some ancillary projects, trying to zero in on the core product. But then on the other hand, you still see, at the same time, tons of mission creep, right? Even a small example \u2014 it\u2019s obviously not core to their business \u2014 is the<a href=\"http:\/\/evince\"> TBPN acquisition<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">By the way, right as we were reaching the finish line and fact-checking, the company facing this kind of journalistic scrutiny acquires a platform where they can have more direct control over the conversation. I think that there are a lot of investors who are concerned, based on the conversations I\u2019ve had, that this problem of promising all things to all people also extends to this lack of focus in the core business model. And I mean, you\u2019re closer to the kind of prognosticating and watching the market than I am probably. I\u2019ll leave you and the listeners to be the judge of whether they think OpenAI can flip the switch.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Well, I asked the question because you\u2019ve got a quote in the piece from a senior Microsoft executive, and it is that, \u201cSam\u2019s legacy might end up more similar to Bernie Madoff or Sam Bankman-Fried,\u201d rather than Steve Jobs. That is quite a comparison. What\u2019d you make of that comparison?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think that\u2019s a paraphrase. The Steve Jobs part wasn\u2019t part of the quote. But there\u2019s an interesting sort of sobriety to it because it\u2019s phrased as like, \u201cI think there\u2019s a small but real chance that he winds up being an SBF or a Madoff-level scammer.\u201d Meaning, to my mind, not that Sam is being accused of those specific types of fraud or crimes, but that the degree of dissembling and deception from Sam may have a chance of ultimately being remembered at that scale.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah, I think what\u2019s most striking about that quote, honestly, is that you call around at Microsoft and you don\u2019t get a like, \u201cThat\u2019s crazy. We\u2019ve never heard that.\u201d You get a lot of like, \u201cYep, a lot of people here think that\u201d which is remarkable. And I think it does go to these nuts and bolts business questions.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">One investor told me, for instance, in light of the way in which this trait has persisted in the years after the firing\u201d \u2014 and this also thought this was an interesting sober thought \u2014 that it\u2019s not necessarily that Sam should be at the absolute bottom of the list, like should be the lowest of the low in terms of the people that absolutely must not build this technology, for what it\u2019s worth. There are several people who said Elon Musk is that person. But that this trait puts him maybe at the bottom of the list of people who should build AGI, and beneath several other leading figures in this field.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So I thought that was an interesting appraisal, and that\u2019s the kind of thinking I think that you get from the real pragmatists who maybe aren\u2019t buying into the safety concerns as much. They\u2019re just growth-oriented, and they think that OpenAI now has a problem with Sam Altman.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The Microsoft piece is really interesting. That company thought they were on top of the world. That they had made this investment and they were going to leapfrog everyone, especially and most importantly, Google, and get back into the good graces of consumers. The level to which they feel burned by this adventure \u2014 this is a very soberly run company \u2014 I don\u2019t think can be overstated.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You mentioned the characters and the personality traits. I want to end here with a question from our listeners. I said on our other show, <\/strong><strong><em>The Vergecast<\/em><\/strong><strong>, that I was going to be talking to you, and I said, \u201cIf you have questions for Ronan about this story, let me know.\u201d So we have one here that I think ties in neatly with what you\u2019re describing. I\u2019m just going to read it to you:<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>\u201cHow do the justifications for bad behavior, cutthroat actions of Altman and other AI leaders, differ from the justifications Ronan has heard from other high-profile leaders in politics and media? Don\u2019t they all justify their actions by saying this is how the world gets changed? If I don\u2019t do this, someone else will?\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah, there\u2019s a lot of that going around. I would say what is distinctive to AI is that the existential stakes being so uniquely high means both the statements of risk are extreme, right? You have Sam Altman saying, \u201cThis could be lights out for all of us.\u201d And also, critics might say, the mania that the questioner is referring to is extreme, right?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The thing that Sam accused Elon of, on the record, was that maybe he wants to save humanity, but only if it\u2019s him. The kind of ego component of wanting to win, which is a framing Sam uses all the time, and that this is one for the history books, this could change everything. So therefore, even above and beyond the \u201cyou\u2019ve got to break a few eggs\u201d mindset of most Silicon Valley enterprises, there is, in the minds of some figures leading AI, I think, a complete rationalization for any and all fallout.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And forget breaking eggs. I\/ think a lot of the underlying safety researchers would say potentially risking breaking the country, breaking the world, and breaking millions of people whose jobs and safety hang in the balance \u2014 that\u2019s what\u2019s unique about it. That\u2019s where I close, reflecting on this body of reporting, really believing this is about more than Sam Altman. This is about an industry that is unconstrained and a spiraling problem of America being unable to constrain it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Yeah. Well, we had some optimism there, but I think that\u2019s a good place to leave it.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">[Laughs] End on a downbeat.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Of course. That\u2019s every great story, really. The Musk-Altman trial is upcoming. I think we\u2019re going to learn a lot more here. I suspect I will want to talk to you again. Ronan Farrow, thank you so much for being on <\/strong><strong><em>Decoder<\/em><\/strong><strong>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _17nnmdya _1xwtict1\">Thank you.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><em><sub>Questions or comments about this episode? Hit us up at decoder@theverge.com. We really do read every email!<\/sub><\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--block-placement _1o279nj1 _1o279nj0 duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--action-box _1ymtmqpj _1ymtmqpz yapvud2 yapvud0\">\n<div class=\"yapvud5 yapvud3\">\n<h2 class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup yapvud6\">Decoder with Nilay Patel<\/h2>\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup\">A podcast from <em>The Verge<\/em> about big ideas and other problems.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm892 _1f7jm890 yapvud9 yapvud7\" href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/decoder\"><span>SUBSCRIBE NOW!<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"tly2fw0\"><span class=\"tly2fw2\"><strong>Follow topics and authors<\/strong> from this story to see more like this in your personalized homepage feed and to receive email updates.<\/span><\/p>\n<ul class=\"tly2fw3\">\n<li id=\"follow-author-article_footer-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx\"><span 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style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0414_Site.png?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto6\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/911605\/ben-mckenzie-crypto-cgm-wearables-vergecast\">Ben McKenzie vs. crypto<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto7 _184mftop _184mftoa _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_Personette_Puck.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto6\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/910443\/can-puck-reinvent-the-news-business-for-the-influencer-age\">Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto7 _184mftop _184mftoa _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/WE500_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto6\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/910725\/western-electric-500-att-version-history\">How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto7 _184mftop _184mftoa _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Fear and loathing at OpenAI\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0410_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto6\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/909621\/openai-sam-altman-drama-vergecast\">Fear and loathing at OpenAI<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto7 _184mftop _184mftoa _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_0409.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto6\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/909042\/ai-monetization-cliff-anthropic-openai-profitable-ai-existential-moment\">The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto7 _184mftop _184mftoa _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The case for banning cookie banners\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0407_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto6\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/907919\/ban-cookie-banners-gemini-maps-vergecast\">The case for banning cookie banners<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1owd142\">\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrj _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Ben McKenzie vs. crypto\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0414_Site.png?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Ben McKenzie vs. crypto\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0414_Site.png?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/911605\/ben-mckenzie-crypto-cgm-wearables-vergecast\">Ben McKenzie vs. crypto<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-14T13:34:32+00:00\">Apr 14<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_Personette_Puck.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_Personette_Puck.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/910443\/can-puck-reinvent-the-news-business-for-the-influencer-age\">Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-13T14:00:00+00:00\">Apr 13<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/WE500_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/WE500_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/910725\/western-electric-500-att-version-history\">How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-12T13:28:46+00:00\">Apr 12<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Fear and loathing at OpenAI\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0410_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Fear and loathing at OpenAI\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0410_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/909621\/openai-sam-altman-drama-vergecast\">Fear and loathing at OpenAI<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-10T12:23:18+00:00\">Apr 10<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_0409.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_0409.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/909042\/ai-monetization-cliff-anthropic-openai-profitable-ai-existential-moment\">The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-09T14:00:00+00:00\">Apr 9<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrk _1ufh7nrl _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The case for banning cookie banners\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0407_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The case for banning cookie banners\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0407_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/907919\/ban-cookie-banners-gemini-maps-vergecast\">The case for banning cookie banners<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-07T13:02:43+00:00\">Apr 7<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--ad--native-ad-linkset _8tvx5m4 _8tvx5m5 _8tvx5ma hidden\" data-native-ad-id=\"container\">\n<div>\n<div class=\"visually-hidden\">\n<div class=\"dynamic-native-ad-native_ad_linkset_link\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/\" aria-label=\"Advertisement\"><\/p>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_8tvx5m7\"><span data-native-ad-id=\"preamble\" class=\"_8tvx5m8 _8tvx5m9\">Advertiser Content From<\/span><\/p>\n<div><img data-native-ad-id=\"logo\" src alt=\"Sponsor Logo\" class=\"_8tvx5mg\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p class=\"_8tvx5mj\" data-native-ad-id=\"title\">This is the title for the native ad<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"n5bh2k6\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--header-pattern mq7s702\">\n<div class=\"mq7s703\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--page-header wh8b410\">\n<div class=\"wh8b41j wh8b41f\">\n<h2 class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup wh8b41o wh8b41m _1xwtict2\">Top Stories<\/h2>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"sticky-nav-trigger\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"mq7s704\">\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrj _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-15T13:00:00+00:00\">Apr 15<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\/912097\/vivo-x300-ultra-camera-kit-hands-on\">More phone cameras should come with telephoto lenses<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-15T19:09:17+00:00\">Apr 15<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/policy\/912689\/live-nation-ticketmaster-antitrust-monopoly-trial-verdict\">Ticketmaster is an illegal monopoly, jury finds<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-14T13:00:00+00:00\">Apr 14<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\/908476\/jon-prosser-apple-liquid-glass\">The heist of iOS 26<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-15T11:30:00+00:00\">Apr 15<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/report\/912101\/microsoft-windows-recall-new-security-concerns-response\">Microsoft faces fresh Windows Recall security concerns<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-15T19:50:31+00:00\">Apr 15<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/column\/912627\/trump-jesus-ai-whcd-penguin-meme\">Trump\u2019s posting even more AI-generated Trump-Jesus fan art<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrk _1ufh7nrl _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-15T12:00:00+00:00\">Apr 15<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/entertainment\/911950\/tomodachi-life-living-the-dream-review-nintendo-switch\">Tomodachi Life is made to be shared \u2014 even if Nintendo doesn\u2019t want you to<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/main><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Podcasts Close Podcasts Posts from this topic will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed. FollowFollow See All Podcasts AI Close AI Posts from this topic will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed. FollowFollow See All AI Tech Close Tech Posts from this topic will be [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[226,250],"class_list":["post-1885512","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-crawlmanager","tag-theverge-com"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1885512","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1885512"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1885512\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1885512"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1885512"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1885512"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}