{"id":1879946,"date":"2026-04-13T14:00:00","date_gmt":"2026-04-13T11:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/?p=1879946"},"modified":"2026-04-13T14:00:00","modified_gmt":"2026-04-13T11:00:00","slug":"can-puck-reinvent-the-news-business-for-the-influencer-age","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/?p=1879946","title":{"rendered":"Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><main id=\"content\"><\/p>\n<div class>\n<article>\n<div class=\"duet--article--lede duet--page-layout--feature-article\">\n<div class=\"duet--ledes--feature-lede olmxu70\">\n<div class=\"olmxu71\">\n<div class=\"olmxu76 olmxu77\">\n<div class=\"bu4cqq5 bu4cqq4\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ymtmqp7\">\n<div class=\"olmxu72 _1ymtmqp3\">\n<div class=\"olmxu73\">\n<div class=\"_1p1nf4x0 _1p1nf4x2\">\n<div class=\"_1p1nf4x3\"><span class=\"_13g9mks17\"><\/p>\n<ul class=\"_1phh1th0\">\n<li>\n<div 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-->Tech<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div id=\"follow-category-breadcrumb-dmcyOmNhdGVnb3J5OjEwOQ==\"><button aria-expanded=\"false\" aria-haspopup=\"true\"><span class=\"gnx4pm0 _4hoiss5 _1xwtict5 _1618ekm0\"><span class=\"_1ajq89ke _1ajq89k1 _1ajq89k0\"><\/span><span class=\"_1618ekm8\">Creators<\/span><\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<aside id=\"popover-dmcyOmNhdGVnb3J5OjEwOQ==-breadcrumb\" style=\"position:absolute;left:0;top:0\" class=\"_1wu3rm0 _6ytxv90\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm1\"><button class=\"_1wu3rm3\"><title>Close<\/title><\/button><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm5\">Creators<\/div>\n<p class=\"fv263x1\">Posts from this topic will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed.<\/p>\n<p><button class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm891 _1f7jm890 fv263x2 _1f7jm89g\"><span><title>Follow<\/title><\/span><span>Follow<\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<p class=\"fv263x4\"><a class=\"fv263x5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/creators\">See All <!-- -->Creators<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><\/span><\/div>\n<div class>\n<h1 class=\"_8enl992 _8enl990 _8enl997 _1xwtictb _1xwtict9\">Can Puck reinvent the news business for the influencer age?<\/h1>\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup _8enl99i _8enl99g _1xwtictb _1xwtict1\">CEO Sarah Personette\u2019s big bet on the place where influencers and reporters might meet<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_13g9mks2 _13g9mks0 _13g9mks21\">\n<div class=\"_13g9mks9 _13g9mksh\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-byline _1xwtictb _114qu8c0\"><span class><span>by<\/span> <!-- --> <span aria-expanded=\"false\" role=\"button\"><span id=\"follow-author-author_byline_lead-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx\" class=\"t0jcdf0 gnx4pm0 _114qu8c2 _114qu8c4 t0jcdf1\"><span class=\"t0jcdf2\"><span class=\"_1ajq89ke _1ajq89k1 _1ajq89k0\"><\/span><\/span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<aside id=\"popover-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx-author_byline_lead\" style=\"position:absolute;left:0;top:0\" class=\"_1wu3rm0 _6ytxv90\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm1\"><button class=\"_1wu3rm3\"><title>Close<\/title><\/button><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1bw37384\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Nilay Patel\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1bw37385 x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/author_profile_images\/195834\/NILAY_PATEL.0.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm5 _1bw37380\">Nilay Patel<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1bw37381\">\n<div class=\"_1bw37382\">Editor-in-Chief<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p class=\"fv263x1\">Posts from this author will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed.<\/p>\n<p><button class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm891 _1f7jm890 fv263x2 _1f7jm89g\"><span><title>Follow<\/title><\/span><span>Follow<\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<p class=\"fv263x4\"><a class=\"fv263x5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/authors\/nilay-patel\">See All by <!-- -->Nilay Patel<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<p><\/span><\/div>\n<p><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp5 tvl9dp1 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1xwtictb\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-13T14:00:00+00:00\">Apr 13, 2026, 2:00 PM UTC<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<div class=\"_13g9mksm _13g9mksw\">\n<div class=\"_13g9mksx _13g9mks15\"><span class=\"_13g9mks16 _13g9mks17\"><\/p>\n<ul class=\"duet--article--share-buttons a8vjfv0\">\n<li>\n<div class=\"a8vjfvo\"><button aria-label=\"Copy link\" class=\"a8vjfv3 a8vjfv1\"><title>Link<\/title><\/button><\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li><button aria-expanded=\"false\" aria-haspopup=\"true\" aria-label=\"Share article\" class=\"a8vjfv3 a8vjfv1\"><title>Share<\/title><\/button><\/li>\n<li><\/ul>\n<p><\/span><span class=\"_13g9mks24 _1ymtmqpr _13g9mks16 _13g9mks17\"><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_13g9mks19\">\n<div class=\"_10nsm938 _10nsm930 _10nsm932b\">\n<div class=\"_10nsm930 _10nsm93f _10nsm939\" data-concert=\"article_sponsorship_white_mobile_and_tablet\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_13g9mks1u _13g9mks1y\">\n<div class=\"_13g9mks1h\">\n<div class=\"_10nsm938 _10nsm930 _10nsm932c\">\n<div class=\"_10nsm930 _10nsm93d _10nsm939\" data-concert=\"article_sponsorship_white_desktop\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"bu4cqq0\">\n<div class=\"olmxu74\">\n<div class=\"_1ibjt4j0\">\n<div class=\"_1ibjt4j2 _1ibjt4j1 sticky-nav-trigger\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_2ezt6b0\">\n<div class=\"_1ozko3v3\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--layout--entry-body-container _1t5ltw90 _1ymtmqp3 _1ymtmqp15\">\n<div class=\"_1t5ltw91\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--entry-body _9f4de40\">\n<div class=\"duet--ledes--standard-lede-bottom\">\n<div class=\"_1o1f7ku5\">\n<div class=\"_1gmcxs22 _1gmcxs20\">\n<div class=\"_1n017go0 _1n017go1\">\n<div class=\"_1n017go3\"><a class=\"_1n017go6\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/authors\/nilay-patel\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Nilay Patel\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"36\" height=\"36\" data-nimg=\"1\" class=\"_1n017go4\" style=\"color:transparent\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/author_profile_images\/195834\/NILAY_PATEL.0.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=96\"><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1n017go5\"><span aria-expanded=\"false\" role=\"button\"><span id=\"follow-author-standard_article_details-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx\" class=\"t0jcdf0 gnx4pm0 _114qu8c2 _114qu8c3 t0jcdf1\"><span class=\"t0jcdf2\"><span class=\"_1ajq89k1 _1ajq89k0\"><\/span><\/span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<aside id=\"popover-dmcyOmF1dGhvclByb2ZpbGU6NjAx-standard_article_details\" style=\"position:absolute;left:0;top:0\" class=\"_1wu3rm0 _6ytxv90\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm1\"><button class=\"_1wu3rm3\"><title>Close<\/title><\/button><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1bw37384\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Nilay Patel\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1bw37385 x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/author_profile_images\/195834\/NILAY_PATEL.0.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1wu3rm5 _1bw37380\">Nilay Patel<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1bw37381\"><\/div>\n<p class=\"fv263x1\">Posts from this author will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed.<\/p>\n<p><button class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm891 _1f7jm890 fv263x2 _1f7jm89g\"><span><title>Follow<\/title><\/span><span>Follow<\/span><\/button><\/p>\n<p class=\"fv263x4\"><a class=\"fv263x5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/authors\/nilay-patel\">See All by <!-- -->Nilay Patel<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<p> <span class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup _1n017go7\">is editor-in-chief of The Verge, host of the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/decoder-podcast-with-nilay-patel\"><b>Decoder podcast<\/b><\/a>, and co-host of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/the-vergecast\"><b>The Vergecast<\/b><\/a>.<\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div id=\"zephr-anchor\" class=\"_1ymtmqp11\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _17nnmdy6 _17nnmdy5 _1xwtict1\">Today, I\u2019m talking with Sarah Personette, CEO of Puck, which is a fancy new media company that\u2019s been around for just about five years now.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Puck hires big stars and gives them newsletters that are all mostly part of a subscription bundle. These newsletters are often must-reads in their categories \u2014 everyone in Hollywood reads Puck\u2019s Matt Belloni, for instance. Those reporters then get equity in Puck and a share of the company\u2019s revenue.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The idea is to combine the financial incentives of the influencer economy with the rigor of old-school journalism \u2014 you\u2019ll hear Sarah say journalists were the original influencers, which is Puck\u2019s catchphrase. <em>Decoder <\/em>listeners know that I have a lot of questions about that, and how it all fits into the modern media landscape.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--block-placement _1o279nj2 _1o279nj0 duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--highlight _1ymtmqpl kuxlcj0\">\n<div class=\"kuxlcj1\"><\/div>\n<div>\n<div style=\"position:relative\">\n<div class>\n<div class>\n<div style=\"background-image:none\" class=\"duet--media--content-warning ucljxw0\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--image-gallery-image kqz8fh0\" style=\"aspect-ratio:1\" id=\"dmcyOmltYWdlOjU5NQ==\"><a class=\"kqz8fh1\" href=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/uploads\/chorus_asset\/file\/24792604\/The_Verge_Decoder_Tileart.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0,0,100,100\" data-pswp-height=\"3000\" data-pswp-width=\"3000\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/chorus\/uploads\/chorus_asset\/file\/24792604\/The_Verge_Decoder_Tileart.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"kuxlcj4\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1 kuxlcj7\"><em>Verge<\/em> subscribers, don\u2019t forget you get exclusive access to ad-free <em>Decoder<\/em> wherever you get your podcasts. Head <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/account\/podcasts\">here<\/a>. Not a subscriber? You can <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/subscribe\">sign up here<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The creator and influencer economy works very differently than journalism does. If you take a high-level look at the business of most creators, they all kind of look like little ad agencies, doing brand deals and negotiating rates in a way that has always felt incompatible with journalism, at least to me. I don\u2019t begrudge anyone this reality; that\u2019s where the money is, especially since the big platforms that distribute content tend to pay very little for it, if they pay anything at all. And since the biggest audiences are on the platforms, finding a way to bridge the gap is basically <em>the<\/em> challenge in media \u2014 how do you find new readers who are willing to pay without accidentally giving your work away for free on platforms that don\u2019t seem to value it very much?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019ve had versions of this conversation with a lot of media people over the years: everyone from the CEO of <em>The New York Times<\/em> and the publisher of <em>The Wall Street Journal<\/em> to streaming service executives, digital media folks, and, of course, a bunch of creators. Usually these conversations are pretty loose and pretty fun, because, well, I\u2019m also in the media, and we all have this same basic problem. I was hoping to get a fresh view from Sarah, because before she became CEO of Puck, she spent a long time working first for Facebook and then for Twitter.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So I really wanted to get into all that with Sarah, and I asked her a lot of questions about it. I have to admit, though: I\u2019m not sure I got the answers I was looking for.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Have a listen, and let us know what you think. We really do read all the emails.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Okay: Puck CEO Sarah Personette. Here we go.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--block-placement _1o279nj1 _1o279nj0 duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup _1h0hdr20\">\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><em>This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Sarah Personette, you\u2019re the CEO of Puck. Welcome to <\/strong><strong><em>Decoder<\/em><\/strong><strong>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Thank you, Nilay. What a pleasure to be here.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I\u2019m really excited to talk to you. I have a million thoughts about the creator economy and journalism and the information ecosystem. You\u2019re a fascinating person to talk to about all that, because you worked at the big platforms \u2014 Twitter and Facebook \u2014 and now you\u2019re at Puck, which is a media company that has an interesting perspective on being integrated with the creator and influencer world.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I just want to start at the start. You\u2019ve been the CEO at Puck for a little over two years now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Correct. About two and a half.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Before that, again, you were at Facebook and Twitter during some periods of pretty rapid change there. You spent a minute at Refinery 29. Quickly describe your experiences at the platform companies.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Very different actually. When I first started at Facebook, that was back in around 2009, 2010. And so the company was around 1,000 people. And even though that sounds like a large company, it actually was more of a startup and operated with a startup mentality. You used to hear Mark Zuckerberg say a lot, \u201cMove fast and break things.\u201d Then fast-forward three or four years post-IPO, it was, \u201cMove fast and build good infrastructure.\u201d Just even in that small amount of time, seeing the maturation of the company, the growth of the company, it moved from being a singular big blue app to also being a family of apps and services. We had acquired Instagram, and we had to integrate that appropriately. We spun out Messenger into a singular application. We acquired WhatsApp. We acquired Atlas and used that as our measurement tool and foundation.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And then with that, you also had this massive technological shift, which is really applicable, I think, to the rise of the creator economy and the impact on publishers and media companies that I know we\u2019ll get into. But during the time that I was at Facebook, which was over about an eight-year period, we also had the shift from desktop to mobile. That was a really profound technological change that had an impact, certainly on employees and the way that the company was run, and it also had a significant impact on the way that businesses operated, the way that they became mobile-first, the way that they interacted and communicated with consumers in a totally new and direct-to-consumer way. That was my Facebook experience.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">At Twitter, I was the chief customer officer for about five years through to the sale of the company to the current ownership. That was really interesting because of the pattern recognition of having gone through so many different stages of growth [at Facebook] \u2014 To zoom out for a second, when you think about organizational change and organizational change theory, there\u2019s a belief that systems, structures, and processes break in threes and 10s. When a company grows from three people to 10 people, 10 people to 30 people, 30 people to 100 people, et cetera, those systems, tools, and structures essentially need to be rewritten.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Within the Twitter sphere, I came in where we had the opportunity to rewrite a lot of those systems and structures and really rebuild the ad tech stack. We had the opportunity to really think holistically about how we were serving the public conversation in each and every engagement. We also were able to really think through how we serve and deliver value for our advertisers when they\u2019re trying to launch a brand or connect with what\u2019s happening in the world. That shift was really powerful because the evolution and the stages in gating that I experienced in the Facebook world were some of the things and the best practices I was able to bring to my Twitter experience, which was just truly one of the greatest honors of my life, to be able to be a leader in that company during that time.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You mentioned Twitter\u2019s current ownership. Obviously it\u2019s X now. It\u2019s owned by Elon Musk. You left when Elon bought it. What was that like?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Excellent question. I can\u2019t really speak about the current state of the company for several reasons, but what I can share with you is that during that acquisition, which was obviously a very public acquisition, I talk about it being one of the greatest honors of my life and truly it was. I think in so many ways we live in a very volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous world, and that acronym is not by mistake. VUCA is a type of leadership structure that I\u2019ve used in almost the entirety of my career to help lead teams.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">During that time [at Twitter], my team was around 2,000 people around the world. I was able to communicate with them about what was happening, why it was happening, how we helped customers understand the value of the acquisition and the reason to stay on the platform. Being able to navigate those types of changes is something that makes every single individual a much better leader. And as those folks have both stayed at the company and as clients have continued to stay on with the company, as well as those folks that have moved on to other roles inside of the industry, I know that they look at that time and they look at the way that I try to communicate with real deep transparency and empathy and surround things around evidence-based decisioning that has stayed with them and made them stronger leaders over the course of time. It was a powerful part of my career.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Wait, can you say what that acronym is again?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">It\u2019s called <a href=\"https:\/\/www.pmi.org\/disciplined-agile\/vuca-volatility-uncertainty-complexity-and-ambiguity\">VUCA, V-U-C-A<\/a>. The origins of VUCA actually come from the <a href=\"https:\/\/usawc.libanswers.com\/ahec\/faq\/84869\">National War College<\/a> following the Cold War. There was a realization that there\u2019s no longer this stability in a bipolar world. When you were thinking about how to structure for a new system of enemy, if you will, you needed to be more planful and more capable of navigating within a highly volatile, again, very complex, ambiguous world.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019ve taken that philosophy and applied that at significant moments in time in my career with my teams, because if you\u2019re operating in a VUCA world and you\u2019re leading in a VUCA world, you\u2019re always really mindful of establishing a plan, communicating clearly with each other, developing trust inside of your organization so that when things like Cambridge Analytica occur or things like a public acquisition occur, that you\u2019re ready for it. Those things can be large and globally proliferated [or] really small because in so many ways, work and business is the most personal thing and how we manage ourselves is a big part of how we also collectively manage a team.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I do like the idea that your approach to the Twitter acquisition by Elon Musk was to compare it to Cold War, bipolar power dynamics.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Not at all a comparison. I have been using VUCA well before. I actually was introduced to the concept by the CEO of Build-A-Bear, Sharon John. She\u2019s an exceptional human and an exceptional leader. She was introduced to it at some conference and I used to sit on her board and she brought that back to a meeting and I was like, \u201cThis is something that really certainly has had staying power for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Okay, now I\u2019m just dying to know why the Build-A-Bear CEO thinks that she needs Cold War-era political philosophy, but we will do that episode. The producers will book that another time.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You should book her as a guest. She is phenomenal.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You mentioned the idea that some customers stayed on. I\u2019m curious about this. Your roles have been more advertising focused, I would say broadly. Making people spend money on the platforms. Elon\u2019s approach to advertisers who had concerns about that platform after he bought it was to sue them, and to threaten them, and to tear down their brand safety initiatives. That\u2019s all stuff that, in the administration that you were a part of, Twitter actually built up, and that Facebook at some point was a big part of. The idea that \u201cWe\u2019re going to have a wide open spread of content from our users, we will build the tools to make sure you\u2019re in the right places at the right time, you\u2019re not next to the bad stuff. We\u2019ll have content moderation to make sure that people don\u2019t see the bad stuff at high rates.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That\u2019s all basically been torn down, particularly on X, but even maybe on Facebook. How do you see that world playing out? Because the idea of a company like Puck or any other premium media organization, the pitch to advertisers is like, \u201cWe\u2019re special. And X and Facebook are bad. It\u2019s, very bluntly, noise and full of garbage and they\u2019re tearing down the things that make your brand special. You should come over here where you have a smaller audience that cares for the kind of premium journalism we make.\u201d But you built all that up and now it\u2019s being torn down and now you\u2019re at Puck trying to make that sale. How do you feel about all that stuff being torn down?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I can\u2019t comment on the current state of the company, but what I would love to zoom out and talk about is some of the technological shifts that impacted and have impacted where we are today as a talent-led journalism organization. I\u2019ll start you with these five numbers: 38, 14, seven, four, and months. 38 is the number of years that it took radio to hit 100 million listeners. 14 is the number of years it took TV to hit 100 million viewers. Seven is 100 million for the desktop internet. Four is the migration of 100 million to mobile, and then months is the adoption of AI by 100 million people. The reason why I bring that up and why I think those numbers matter and the progression of how they get incrementally and deeply smaller is that we have lived through in our lifetime, and certainly in our careers, some of the fastest technological shifts that have ever occurred.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Now, you might be like, \u201cThat\u2019s great. And yes, the different platforms go through that, but why does it matter for news and media?\u201d If you go back to the 1970s, which was the industrial media model, you had a really interesting, very neat landscape. You had 90% of viewership for news concentrated in ABC, CBS, and NBC. You had local newspapers thriving, like absolutely thriving from a circulation perspective, and it was actually a good business model to be in. And you had trust at an all time high. Trust was at 72% when Gallup was doing the research at the time. That\u2019s particularly interesting because distribution was really scarce. It was quite controlled, but you also had a lot of these very clear shared experiences between people. When I walked through those changes and those shifts from a technological perspective, the first thing that happened was really the rise of the internet.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The internet and digital disruption didn\u2019t just dismantle journalism. It actually rebuilt and reshaped journalism layer by layer. That\u2019s only the first shift because that\u2019s where new voices emerged, that\u2019s where local stories traveled faster. I\u2019m not sure if you\u2019re familiar with the Panama Papers, but that was like a great example of the internet and journalism at its best. You had reporters from multiple different countries coming together to report on corruption. But at the same time, you had some challenges. You had the systems starting to break. That very capital-intensive world now no longer was capital-intensive. With a keyboard and with access to wifi, you could be a journalist and that was awesome, but you also had scarcity disappear, you had attention fragment, you had the gatekeepers, the editors of the world move from being capable of editing to editing being dominated by algorithms.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Just quick numbers. During a 15-year period, 2,500 local newspapers closed and 36,000 newsroom jobs disappeared. That rebuilding was just starting to get under control and then mobile disruption occurred and now all of a sudden information is in our pockets and there\u2019s so much power in that. But what also comes with that is that now news and media, which used to be invited into our homes for the 10 o\u2019clock or 11 o\u2019clock news became a little bit more disruptive and interruptive. The rise of AI has experienced the steepest acceleration curve out of any technological shift and presents many powerful and very positive aspects of what it can do for workflow, what it can do for operational excellence. There are many positives, but at the same time, there was another challenge in that if anything, any object, any article can be created by something that is artificial, then who can we trust?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">In 2023, Gallup did another poll, and trust had declined from that 72% in the 1970s to 32%. It\u2019s seemingly obvious that the answer to \u201cWho can we trust?\u201d is \u201cPeople.\u201d That is why for Puck, being a talent-led organization, Jon Kelly, the founder of our company, had this thesis years ago. I don\u2019t know if he went through the technological shifts that my mind goes through, but he knew that journalists were the original influencers and he knew that in order to reclaim trust for the reader, it required putting talent at the center for so many different reasons. But in particular, I think that reclaiming of trust was really, really important.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">This is why Puck\u2019s talent-first model is so influential, why we actually see others trying to copy it, because when you hear from Matt Belloni, you know that he has deep-seated relationships in Hollywood and in entertainment. You know he is extremely well-sourced. You also know that because we have a primary distribution model of newsletters, you can respond to his email and he\u2019s going to respond back to you.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Wait, is he? Is he going to respond?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah, he does.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>He responds to every single email?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I can\u2019t speak for him. I don\u2019t have access to his inbox, but he prides himself on both listening to all of his readership as well as responding to his leadership. And it\u2019s not just Matt. Within the Puck ecosystem, we have eight different franchises that serve the professional elite. We have the entertainment franchise under Matt Belloni. We have Lauren Sherman, who leads our fashion content and our fashion franchise, and Marion Maneker, who leads our art content. We have Bill Cohan, who leads all of our finance content. Ian Krietzberg, who we just brought on last year for the introduction of our AI and technology franchise, is exceptional. All of these individuals are people who have points of view and relationships and sourcing capabilities that put the personality and the person at the center so that our subscribers, that direct reader relationship can really thrive in a high-trust community.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And that\u2019s I think the story of how we got to a talent-led business and a talent-led business model where journalists are at the center and equity incentives are aligned. Each of our journalists have ownership inside of the company, which is not anything that used to exist in legacy media before. That is a really, really powerful sentiment and a really powerful point in where, to the top of the question, all of these technology shifts have really driven us today and why I wanted to be CEO of this company. Because you don\u2019t have a lot of CEOs in media companies that come from technology companies, but the pattern recognition that comes in that scale and the influence of what we tried to do inside of those companies matters so much today in what we\u2019re designing.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You\u2019ve kind of gotten to my structure question. I ask everybody on <\/strong><strong><em>Decoder <\/em><\/strong><strong>to describe the structure of the company. It seems like you\u2019ve got Jon Kelly, he\u2019s the editor-in-chief, and so he operates deputy editors, it sounds like, in a bunch of verticals. And do they have reporters?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019ll zoom out. Jon Kelly is both editor-in-chief as well as the founder of the company. He is really just one of the smartest individuals that I\u2019ve ever worked with and I say that having worked with Jack Dorsey and Sheryl [Sandberg], and so many others. He\u2019s really exceptional. He oversees the entirety of our content organization. That\u2019s inclusive of Puck as a media brand and that\u2019s inclusive of Air Mail as a media brand.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That\u2019s with the acquisition?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah, we <a href=\"https:\/\/www.thewrap.com\/puck-acquires-air-mail-graydon-carter-steps-down\/\">acquired Air Mail<\/a> back at the end of October, so I know you\u2019ll have questions around that. But Air Mail is run by Editor-In-Chief Julia Vitale, who grew up underneath Graydon [Carter]. She is absolutely exceptional and she\u2019s come over to lead that team.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>One of the things that\u2019s really interesting here is we have a young audience, a big audience. I\u2019m not sure that they know what Puck is or what that history is, and I think this is one of the bigger questions I have for you as a whole.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>This is a pretty storied legacy that you\u2019re trading on. Buying Air Mail is a big deal that I do want to talk about because it was Graydon Carter\u2019s venture after Vanity Fair. I\u2019ve read his memoir, it was very fun. But I know my audience doesn\u2019t know any of these things.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Actually, the dynamic between \u201cDo I follow Matt Belloni,\u201d or \u201cDo I care about Puck as an institution?\u201d is one of the most challenging dynamics in all of media. I will tell you, I actually disagree with a few things you\u2019ve said already. One, I think it\u2019s the platforms that have torn down the institutions. I don\u2019t think that they are a good partner for any media brand. And I think the idea that journalists and influencers are the same or should be the same is actually quite dangerous.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Interesting.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I would pull those ideas as far apart as I can because I think journalism is a process, it\u2019s a way of working.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Being an influencer is a way of making money. Those things are not aligned. And I\u2019m very curious how you can pull all these ideas together and try to have the cost structure of the old way, the prestige of the old way, the Graydon Carter way, with the economics that are pulling everyone towards integrated brand deals and influencer world. Because it doesn\u2019t matter if the journalists are influencers if they\u2019re not doing the direct brand integrations the influencers are actually doing to support that level of work.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">While I appreciate your disagreement and it makes for a very good podcast, I would disagree with your disagreement.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The thing that I would say is challenged in legacy media. You can\u2019t really say that legacy media had it figured out because, as you look around, we\u2019ve seen just constant layoffs happening inside of the industry for the last five to ten years. Dylan Byers, who runs our media content, has written about it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">One of the challenges with that is that the majority of layoffs were not coming from the sales teams or from the operations side. The people that were being laid off were the people that made the product, the people that influenced society. The people that helped to create a world that ideally would define what trust looked like in journalism. That was the journalist. For me, on the technology side, when I think of heroes inside of the organization, it\u2019s usually the product and engineering folks. But for whatever reason, the way that media grew up, it wasn\u2019t the people that were making the product, it wasn\u2019t the journalists. It was actually those were the people that were ultimately being let go.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Right, but the reason they were being let go is because they cost money and there was no money associated with their product because their distribution was torn down by platforms.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>My biggest problem in my cost structure \u2014 and my reporters know, I say this to them all the time \u2014 is that I pay them money and then they tweet for free. This is the dynamic in every newsroom in the world is that we give our work to other people\u2019s distribution for free all the time. And I know that you have a subscription model and that\u2019s different, but that is specifically the dynamic that has led to the hollowing out of newsrooms, that we don\u2019t control our distribution.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Can we put the platform piece to the side for one second and just finish up the influencer?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>We can try. I\u2019m really not sure how.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">No, I will address that, but I don\u2019t think those two things are connected. And the reason for that is we do have a subscriber-based model. Our subscription revenue grew over 50% last year and that is really critical. We do control our distribution and our journalists are not a cost center. The way that we look at each franchise is thinking through the economics of each of those franchises and we do a biannual business review with each of those reporters who anchor each of our franchises.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">So the operating leverage that we bring into this system still allows for the job to be done. The job to be done is not\u2026 I wouldn\u2019t define influencers and creators only as those that do integrated brand partnerships.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>But that\u2019s how they all make their money.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">That might be how they make their money, but Matt Belloni is very influential in the world of Hollywood because he\u2019s reporting on it, and that influence matters. But so does the relationship that he has. This is why I started out by saying he goes so deep into his sourcing and this is not\u2026 Matt\u2019s an illustration of all of our journalists. But when you are in that industry, you know you have to read him because he is reporting on the inside story. He\u2019s giving you access to information that you would not normally have access to and he does that with a high margin business. So yes, our revenue model is two-fold. We have a subscriber revenue model and we have a commercial revenue model, an advertising model.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Those things that you\u2019re describing, that you can\u2019t have a profitable business that is talent-led and journalist-led, I would disagree with. I think that is absolutely possible and that is the reason why each of our journalists have equity and ownership in the company, because we want them to be incentivized to make hard decisions around cost. We are very diligent in those things. We also have the luxury of being 4.5 years old and not having been built for the last 20 years.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I consistently say that it is a real honor to be able to lead this company and to lead it through significant advancements in growth from a revenue perspective, from a content perspective, from a talent perspective and also from a subscriber growth perspective. We just hit over 100,000 paying subscribers, we have upwards of a million folks overall that are reading the publication and that\u2019s significant.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">To get to your platform piece\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Actually, can I just ask you? The last public number from 2025 was 45,000. So the 55,000 is from the Air Mail acquisition?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">It is the last public number we announced with Brian Morrissey and the rebooting, I announced that we had hit 100,000. We don\u2019t actually break out the difference between them. That 45,000 was a 2024 number. With the acquisition of Air Mail, we will exceed 100,000.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Okay. So you can just back into it. You had one public number, you made an acquisition, you had a big jump to another public number. Does Air Mail have the same structure? Do they have equity, do they have a revenue share?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yeah. So right now with the acquisition, we\u2019re working through all of the employee-based comp for equity and ownership. It\u2019s all one collective company and all one same compensation structure.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Air Mail was a brand, Graydon Carter is a brand person, Vanity Fair is a brand. You were not really supposed to know who Graydon Carter was unless you were the sort of person who needed to know who Graydon Carter was and then he was very important. Air Mail was built on that model. How many people worked at Air Mail?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We have 45 to 50 people from Air Mail and 45 to 50 people from Puck. We\u2019re about 50-50 in terms of talent overall. Although just for your listener base, as you do an acquisition, one thing that you think about is the post-merger integration and how you bring two companies together, how you think about centers of excellence where you might have four finance people on one side and you have four finance people on the other side. We did a lot of that synergy work.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Usually when people say synergy work, they mean layoffs. Did you lay people off?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We laid off a few people from the Air Mail side and a few people from the Puck side. Yes, absolutely, we did. We were thoughtful and really careful. We communicated that within the first 24 hours of the acquisition and reviewed where we felt like we had too many people within one team and then where we would port folks over from either side of the business.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>And then the total split between the talent who is supposed to go out and be the face of the company and make all the money and the management is what now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Management, we have nine people on our leadership team and then we have, across our journalist and editorial teams, probably 40. And then maybe, yeah, 40 to 50. And then the rest are in sales, marketing, our technology team. We have a very small strategy and ops team.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>One of the reasons I\u2019m asking this is I have friends who\u2019ve left big media jobs to go to Substack or Ghost, or whatever. And then I have friends who have left Substack to go to another email provider because they think Substack\u2019s 10% revenue cut is too much. They\u2019re not getting the value out of Substack. You\u2019re taking more than 10%. Just describing that overhead for an individual journalist, that\u2019s a lot to pay into to support a sales team or whatever else you might have, compared to the revenue you might get back. How do you justify the split you\u2019re taking from the individual reporters?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">From a compensation perspective and we do, on an annual basis, we look our comps on compensation relative to the industry, and our journalists and editors\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Wait. \u201cThe industry\u201d is the media industry, or the Substack industry, or the Instagram influencer industry\u2026?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The media industry. And our comps are at or very much above the current comps. And then also, our journalists, but all of our employees, have equity and ownership in the company. I feel very confident that the way we pay our people is very much aligned and incentivized with the holistic company.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think on the Substack side\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Wait, can I just ask about that equity? Are you paying dividends on that equity? Or is that just paper money?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">No, we are not because we\u2019re not a public company right now.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Sure. I\u2019m asking what the equity is worth. I am the person who owns a bunch of paper equity in a media company, it\u2019s great. Sometimes I think about it, it doesn\u2019t pay the bills. Does it pay the bills for your people?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, I appreciate that. Not at the current moment, but the value and especially with the recent acquisition, as well as what everything was built on prior to that, has made the value of the equity significantly higher. And as someone who was also at another company pre-IPO, I believe in ownership as a component part of a compensation structure.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">For your listeners, I would also encourage them to really consider that as well. There is a ton of value to think about your TTC, your total compensation package. So really, while I appreciate your point, I just want to make sure you\u2019re guiding your young listeners to be thoughtful.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Well, sure. If you\u2019re going to equity and it\u2019s going to pay off a huge number, you need an exit event. What\u2019s your exit event look like?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">That\u2019s a really good question. Right now, we are completely focused on continuing to grow the successful company that we\u2019ve built thus far. I feel really good about that. So no exit strategy at the current\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Right. So I just want to stay focused on this for one second. We are saying, \u201cWe\u2019re doing better than the media industry,\u201d which is dying and pays at low rates. We\u2019re not maybe doing as well as the influencer industry and the Substack industry which, if you\u2019re a winner at the level that you might need people to be a winner at, pays at extraordinarily high rates. And you\u2019re making up the gap with equity that is not liquid and there is no stated plan to be liquid. So should your employees expect an exit to pay that off?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Let me just clarify because that is not what I said. I said that the base compensation is at or above the industry level.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The media industry.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The media industry, correct.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>People leave the media industry because they can get more money on Substack, that\u2019s what I\u2019m asking.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">That\u2019s very interesting because two of our acquihires prior to came from Substack and that\u2019s because they don\u2019t feel like they\u2019re capable of monetizing the platform as well. It\u2019s also because the world of Substack \u2014 I actually think Substack\u2019s a very interesting platform; I don\u2019t have a ton of internal knowledge about the company. What they\u2019re trying to do in terms of democratization is really interesting. But what we\u2019ve found is that Substack tends to be a platform of solo operators and many journalists are actually looking to be able to be independent and really be free to express the stories that they want to express. But also, to have infrastructure around them where they do have a sales team, they do have a growth marketing team and that\u2019s the part that we\u2019ve built out.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">A lot of the calculations that you just went through are incorrect. And another example of that is each of our authors get bonused based on the subscribers that they acquire and that they retain. They are incentivized to continue to grow. We\u2019re incentivized as a company to help them grow. And that comes back to them. So your total compensation package, I think you oriented a little bit too much around equity, but again, the purpose of ownership is that everyone should feel like they have a voice in the company. And that\u2019s a big part of what we\u2019re trying to create. But I think that the challenges that you\u2019re painting relative to the broader industry are very real and I can appreciate that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I\u2019m just trying to understand what the value of being a part of the organization is. Matt Belloni \u2014 we\u2019ve talked about him several times here. Hi, Matt. We\u2019re big fans over here \u2014 he was <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2025\/11\/16\/business\/matthew-belloni-puck-hollywood.html\"><strong>profiled in the New York Times<\/strong><\/a><strong> in November. And this is a quote. He said, \u201cIt\u2019s safe to say I could make a lot more money if I were independent, at least in the short term, but I don\u2019t know. Do I want to be on Substack?\u201d That\u2019s some ambiguity, right? The thing that you could do on that platform \u2014 and I have a lot of problems with that platform as listeners of this show know very well \u2014 but the thing you can do on that platform is collect a lot more revenue without the overhead.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>All of my friends who go there say, \u201cI don\u2019t need all this stuff. I have fans on social media and I can convert them to get paid over here and I will make all the money for myself.\u201d So I\u2019m trying to really just nail down what\u2019s the value of being part of the greater organization and paying a higher cut even than you would pay to Substack for their marketing. Is it your sales team? Is it the growth marketing team? Is it product? How does that work?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think it\u2019s the collective whole. And again, I don\u2019t agree with your calculations, but that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I\u2019m sorry, what calculations have I made that you disagree with?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Well, I don\u2019t think that we take a greater cut.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You don\u2019t think the overhead of working for Puck is greater than Substack\u2019s 10%?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I think that what we provide relative to scale from an advertising perspective and a subscriber perspective, as well as paying benefits, as well as providing bonuses. is higher. So that\u2019s where I\u2019m coming at it from. I appreciate you continuing to pick at it, but I disagree with that statement.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I mean, if you just said \u201cwe provide health insurance,\u201d I think that\u2019s meaningful for a lot of people.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Yes.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I get it.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We provide health insurance.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I have two kids and that\u2019s always on my mind. Whenever someone asks me about going independent, I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, I have two kids and I love running my newsroom.\u201d But the dynamic for a lot of people I know thinking about this isn\u2019t, \u201cI should go work for another company.\u201d It\u2019s, \u201cThe rewards for me are very high if I go out on my own.\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I think you\u2019re trying to sit in the middle of that and I\u2019m just trying to find the edges of how that model works because if you end up in a traditional cost structure, it won\u2019t work. And if you end up all the way over here, you\u2019re competing with a cost structure where the platforms get all the content for free. Or in Substack\u2019s case, people pay them for the content, which is maybe the best business model of them all. Somewhere in the middle is Puck and I\u2019m just trying to figure out how that model actually works.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You are correct. We do sit in the middle. That\u2019s why we are able to get the incredible, generationally talented individuals that we have because we support journalists. Not just Matt, but Bill Cohan. I mentioned Ian Kreitzberg on the AI front, Lauren Sherman, we just brought on Kim Masters a year ago, Marion Maneker, Dylan Byers. These are incredible journalists that have some of the foremost voices inside of the industries that they write about and that they lead. They\u2019re a part of an organization, but they\u2019re also able to be independent. They do get healthcare. And that does matter. And they do have bonuses and they do have feedback that they get, but they\u2019re also not told what stories to chase. And the benefit of moving from a large media organization to a Substack of it all, the motivation for some might be money, but the motivation for many is independence.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We try to capture the balance between being able to be independent, but also having a support infrastructure in place that allows you to take some of those risks. It\u2019s quite special. The reason why we have a subscriber base that\u2019s also incredibly loyal and growing is that they can feel that in the authors.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>When I talk to people at Substack or the people who have moved to Substack about that 10%, the justification is generally that Substack drives more subscriber growth than any other platform. And the people who\u2019ve left Substack have seen a pretty rapid decline in how fast their subscribers grow. Substack has turned its app basically into a walled garden. They say they do email, but now you open it and it looks like Twitter and there are podcasts inside of it. They\u2019ve made a little social network, even though they claim they haven\u2019t made a social network. That\u2019s fine and it\u2019s working because it\u2019s driving a lot of subscriber growth for a lot of their people.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>When you subscribe to one Substack, they sign you up for like seven more. They have dark patterns in that app. That is their 10%. They will look you in the eye and say, \u201cWe know people think this is a high number. And we say, \u2018If you leave, your rate of new subscribers will go down and that\u2019s worth the 10%. And the second we stop delivering that, we know people are going to turn off.\u2019\u201d Is that the same for Puck? Is it health insurance plus subscriber growth? What\u2019s the mechanism for subscriber growth for you?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Again, I\u2019m not an expert in Substack. What I can say is that many of the subscribers on Substack, at least from the acquihires that we have made, are not paying subscribers. The subscription revenue that I mentioned before is from paying subscribers, and the growth is from paying subscribers. [You have] great base comp and then also equity and healthcare and health insurance and a vacation policy and all of that good stuff and folks to support you when you do want to go on vacation. Aside from all of those things, it goes back to the incentive around the subscriber bonus. As I mentioned before, our growth is driven by marketing. Our growth is driven by the content that our journalists create and the stories that they are selling. It\u2019s also created now because we are building multimodal franchises around these individuals through event businesses.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Also, all of our talent gets bonused on the events that they are a part of. You have the subscriber acquisition bonus, you have a retention bonus, you have an events bonus, and that is our talent getting incentivized and paid for the work and the time and the energy that they\u2019re putting in. That\u2019s really the crux of the value proposition. But again, I would go back to like, if you have any aspiring journalists on your pod, what\u2019s the motivation that they have around wanting to be a journalist? And if it is to be capable of reporting and telling independent stories and also being able to be financially compensated, I think that we are a rare breed of trying to create a company that fosters that. When I think about the career choice to come here versus going to another big technology company, a strong motivator for me was that mission.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Where does your growth come from? If your folks are getting paid more, if they\u2019re getting bonuses on subscriber growth, where does the net new customer come from?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">The net new subscribers come from content that is interesting and breakthrough. I think a lot of the work that has been done with\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Sub scoops. Right. I understand, but you have to distribute the scoop somewhere. Where does it come from?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Are you getting back to the platform piece where that content is distributed?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Yeah. Where is the top of the funnel? When Julia Alexander has a great story, is it search traffic that converts? Is it her tweeting about it? Is it Facebook reels? Where does the net new subscriber come from?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I would imagine you would understand this as well. It does not come from one singular place. We have the organic side of leveraging social platforms. We absolutely encourage our authors to tweet about the stories that they have. We also have a social team that develops all the organic content and leverages the various platforms for that. We also have an incredible comms team that also helps to distribute the stories that are coming out of all of our political content all the way through to all the other franchises. And then also on the experiential side, whenever we are doing any type of event that obviously is talent-centric, we\u2019re talking about the work that they do and that those interviews are coming to life. In this environment, and I walked through at the top of the hour, the transitions that have occurred, there\u2019s no longer a world where distribution is centralized into one, two, or three places.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">There\u2019s not a singular television network that you can advertise on and drive product and growth. There is not a singular platform that you can advertise on and drive growth. That fragmentation and disruption has been happening for over 20 years. If there\u2019s anyone that is saying it comes from a singular source, that\u2019s amazing. But we leverage each of the various platforms and we leverage paid and we leverage organic in order to get the work out in front of net new subscribers. Other examples of that, we\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Wait, what\u2019s your biggest channel? If I go and ask a YouTuber, \u201cWhat\u2019s your biggest channel?\u201d They will say, \u201cThe YouTube algorithm.\u201d If you ask a Substacker, \u201cWhat\u2019s your biggest channel?\u201d They will say, \u201cSubstack.\u201d They\u2019re integrated with their distribution in very particular ways. They don\u2019t always love it. My joke is that every YouTuber gets their wings when they make a video about how mad they are at YouTube, right? This is a tense relationship between creators and their platforms, but if you ask them where the followers come from, it is the platforms themselves. What\u2019s your biggest channel?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I would say our biggest paid channel would be social platforms as well as SEO. Now within the industry and the migration to zero click, we are transforming a lot of the way that even our site is developed and the way that we optimize for GEO. I mean, that\u2019s a big shift in the industry that\u2019s\u2014<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I just want to define some terms. I\u2019m the person who came up with the phrase Google Zero, so I think\u2014<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">You did?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>That\u2019s me. They love it.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Did you really?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I sure did. On this show, as a matter of fact; <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/24167865\/google-zero-search-crash-housefresh-ai-overviews-traffic-data-audience\"><strong>there\u2019s an episode about it<\/strong><\/a><strong>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Awesome.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I think our listeners understand Google Zero is when Google stops sending search traffic to publishers. You\u2019ve heard me talk about it a lot. GEO is generative search optimization, which is, I would say, <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\/900302\/ai-seo-industry-google-search-chatgpt-gemini-marketing\"><strong>as yet unproven and mostly snake oil<\/strong><\/a><strong>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s snake oil, but I do remember when I was at Facebook and many people across marketing and businesses said that social was snake oil. And then I remember that same shift happening with mobile and that no one \u2014 great example \u2014 no one would ever watch video on their mobile phones and now it\u2019s one of the number one consumption formats. I can tell you this, as a business leader, I can\u2019t ignore the changes that AI is driving more broadly, not just in the industry, but in consumption. You\u2019re very correct in saying that it\u2019s not proven out yet. It\u2019s not the singular channel and\/or the singular investment, but we are continuing to work on what it means to be organically discovered in a world that\u2019s Google Zero. Again, that\u2019s really neat that you actually came up with that language because it\u2019s widespread across the industry.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You can watch Sundar Pichai react to me saying the words \u201cGoogle Zero\u201d <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/24158374\/google-ceo-sundar-pichai-ai-search-gemini-future-of-the-internet-web-openai-decoder-interview\"><strong>on this very show<\/strong><\/a><strong>. It was a fun moment for everyone.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I guess my question there is, you don\u2019t have a singular top of funnel like a platform does. You don\u2019t have the bad model the old media companies do. I\u2019m not in any way saying that was a good model. They\u2019re dying. We\u2019re watching them die. You can read Matt describe how Hollywood is dying, very specifically. The cost structure there is bad. Somewhere in the middle is your cost structure, and I\u2019m just trying to figure out where you find the big growth from, or if the plan is to remain small, because it feels like there are two choices to be made right now.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Our primary distribution model is newsletters. We\u2019re not a technology platform. The comparisons to YouTube or Facebook or Substack \u2014 we\u2019re not a technology company. We are absolutely a media company, a news and information company, a journalist-centric company. The primary distribution is that our talent anchors a private email or private newsletter that gets distributed to an audience that is consistently growing related to paying subscribers. And then we also have a long leads list and we use channels like CRM in order to continue to market to hot leads, new leads that come in through discovery, whether it is through our social platform leverage or through a referral that\u2019s coming from another reader that is excited and intrigued about a story and wants somebody else in their industry to understand what\u2019s going on. All of those things fill the top of the funnel that ultimately drive to ideally conversion of becoming a paying subscriber.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">That top of funnel, the way that I think about it is really that there are paying and unpaid, and the conversion of unpaid to paid so it leads to subscribers is also a component of that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You talked about social channels. One of the dynamics I think is really interesting in the world you\u2019re describing is whether or not the institution is important or the talent\u2019s important. It very much feels like your emphasis is on the talent. Do you run paid social on your talent\u2019s social media feeds because that\u2019s where the followers are, or do you have the Puck channel and you want people to follow that?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">It\u2019s a great question. Right now, we do not run paid social on the individual talents. And as I\u2019m processing it, that\u2019s a really interesting conversation to come back around on with talent internally. The way that we\u2019ve managed in the past and through conversations with them is that a lot of talent wants to own and run their own channel. When they have questions or when they need support, they have a person that they can call on for that. Our primary growth has been through our owned and operated channels, but I like the provocation. That is something I certainly will take back if folks are open and interested in that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>This is the dynamic that I think it just is for everyone. The reason that a reporter leaves is they say, \u201cI have however many tens of thousands of Twitter followers, I can monetize 2,000 of them and I\u2019ll make more money than you ever paid me.\u201d I\u2019ve had this conversation, I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve had this conversation. There\u2019s a lot of this in the world and the platforms incentivize the people to participate, right? There\u2019s an infinite supply of teenagers who will make content for Instagram for free. They don\u2019t want the institutions to be powerful because there\u2019s not an infinite supply of news organizations. Once you have a little bit of power there, you might have to pay some rates.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The original sin of digital media is Jonah Peretti believing he could go so viral that Facebook would pay him money. That\u2019s what you\u2019re talking about, the pivot to video. That was that moment right there and it was not going to happen. And I think a lot of people knew it wasn\u2019t going to happen and we all lived through it anyway.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>How do you operate in a world where you want the brand to be central to do the audience acquisition, and the subscriber acquisition you\u2019re describing with the methods you\u2019re describing, when all of the platforms want all the action to be by the people?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I can\u2019t speak to the motivation of platforms today. I think you\u2019re correct when I was at both of those platforms. What I saw is actually a real deep desire to actually support publishers. But again, I don\u2019t work at those companies. I can\u2019t speak to the motivations of them today.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I think we can all see their motivations pretty plainly.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">What I can say is, for us from a Puck perspective, I\u2019m not trying to compete with YouTube. I know I\u2019ve already said this, that we\u2019re not a technology platform. We are focused on covering the stories inside of the industries that have the opinion elite and people that deeply care about what\u2019s happening. That is what we are doing. And we distribute those stories, yes, through newsletters, and then also through a variety of other marketing channels. I know I\u2019m not completely and totally answering your question.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Not really. I think you might be talking about the audience. I\u2019m talking about the people who make the work and the economic incentives of the people who make the work.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>And I mean, you\u2019re describing Puck as the fanciest collection of trade publications that has ever existed in the world. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s what people want to do. I think people want big audiences. I think every reporter wants to be the most famous reporter in the world, and that\u2019s great. That is a perfectly aligned incentive with, go get scoops, go get attention, write the best analysis, go be famous. And that\u2019s going to make everybody a lot of money.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>A collection of small trade verticals for the opinion elite is very different from that impact. Media organizations are losing people to platforms because that impact is so alluring. There is the opportunity to do things that are not journalism, to do integrated brand marketing, to do sponsorships, to go on the job. All the stuff I won\u2019t let my people do that I won\u2019t do. I won\u2019t even read the podcast ads.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>But it\u2019s all right there. You can get the big audience and you can get the big payday. And again, I\u2019m just trying to find the boundary for Puck. You\u2019re kind of making it smaller. I\u2019m just wondering if that size is as lucrative, is impactful, and is incentivizing across all the metrics, as maybe the big platform exit.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">For the journalists in your world, it sounds like you\u2019re trying to encourage them to go to the platforms.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I\u2019m just seeing what\u2019s happening all around me. I\u2019ve run this newsroom for like 15 years. We sell what we sell here. My joke is that we sell our ethics policy, and that\u2019s what people subscribe to us for. Again, we just won\u2019t do the sponsor reads. It drives my company crazy that I won\u2019t do the sponsor reads. Everyone can see the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, labeled, \u201cNilay does a sponsor,\u201d but I won\u2019t do it, because I think what the audience pays us money for is the fact that you can\u2019t tell the newsroom what to do. I would like to believe my newsroom is bought into this, and then the economics makes sense inside of that.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>But you\u2019re describing this talent-led, \u201cjournalists as influencers\u201d model, without the corresponding payoff that the influencers get. And that\u2019s the tension I\u2019m just sitting on.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I appreciate that tension. I think you\u2019re describing a world \u2014 and again, if your listenership is relatively young \u2014 it would [tell] everybody [that] the only career that they should have is to be an influencer. And I fundamentally disagree with that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">An appropriate stat to consider: what I do know of Substack is that their top 10% of authors make 90% of the revenue. I want everyone to hear that. The model that you are describing, that everyone is getting massive paydays from these other platforms, the top 10% are making 90% of the revenue. What we provide is a \u201cplatform,\u201d in quotes, not a technology platform, but a company that does support journalists. And yes, I would say that journalists are the original influencers, but influencers oftentimes just pop up a phone and make content about anything.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Journalism is a fundamentally different profession. You make the point from an ethics perspective, from a fact-checking perspective, from a legal perspective, knowing that if you write a story and somebody else comes after you, and that you have legal support, those things matter in journalism. That, in addition to being able to have audience growth that is a core focus of the company, being able to have commercial growth, being able to get paid for the events that you are a part of, for the subscribers that you are bringing in, I don\u2019t think is small. I actually think it is quite exciting and can be quite large.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">If you look at the various categories, within Puck, Air Mail is a little bit different. That\u2019s the brand that drives cultural advantage. Puck is the brand that drives professional advantage, because it does go through each of these categories or industries that are anchored by our lead talent, they\u2019re telling stories, and they\u2019re reporting on what\u2019s happening at the top of the companies that drive these industries and the people that are making the decisions within it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">But I don\u2019t think any of these industries, in and of themselves, are small. The Puck portfolio is one that is not just about the individual industries, but actually about the interplay and the intersection of power and decisions that occur across each of those franchises.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And that\u2019s also the unique value proposition that Puck, as a brand, brings. That is very much supported by our talent. I continue to be incredibly proud of the fact that I appreciate the tension between brand and talent, but I don\u2019t feel that tension internally. I feel like we are a brand and a company that supports talent so that they can do their job, which is to report.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>You mentioned Air Mail is a little different. How is Air Mail a little different?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Air Mail\u2019s a little bit different in that it is not focused on the professionals inside of an industry. Puck will report on, again, the business of fashion, the business of art economics, things like that, for the professionals that ultimately are in those spaces, and\/or those that are very curious across those industries.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">Air Mail, from a cultural advantage perspective, is reporting on style, fashion, wellness. It has a global perspective on what is happening in the world, and that audience base is certainly opinionally, intellectually curious, but it\u2019s less of a B2P, a business to professional offering, and more of a B2C, a business to consumer offering. And that was one of the reasons why, from an investment thesis perspective, it made so much sense. We had less than 6% audience overlap, even though both are very affluent and elite audiences, but they\u2019re very limited in terms of overlap overall. It\u2019s an awesome add to the portfolio.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Puck is a collection of trade publications that people will pay high rates for. There\u2019s a lot of value in that. I love a good trade publication. I won\u2019t rattle off all my favorites, but there are some very small, very focused trade publications that I think are maybe the best in the entire industry.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Air Mail is not that. Air Mail is like a big fancy culture magazine. It\u2019s called Air Mail because I think it was <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2019\/02\/01\/style\/what-is-graydon-carter-doing-now.html\"><strong>meant to be read<\/strong><\/a><strong> on airplanes. There is a moment for that kind of magazine to exist in first class on an airplane. Are you trying to move audience between them?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The thing you don\u2019t have here is a bundle, right? You have a collection of individual newsletters and you can\u2019t actually bundle them all up and say, \u201cHere\u2019s the whole stack of value we provide.\u201d How do you move audience between individual trade publications where there might not be overlap, and then from that world to Air Mail, which is a glossy culture magazine?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">It\u2019s a great question. On the Puck side, we actually do have a Puck subscription that gets you access to each of the individual franchise categories that organically came up through Puck or that we\u2019ve acquired and launched.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">On the Air Mail side, you\u2019re right that currently it\u2019s a separate subscription, and we\u2019re working through the product roadmap to figure out, essentially, what the bundle offering is, the sample offering. Those are all underway. Probably within the next few months, you\u2019ll see more from us on that side.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Last few questions, we\u2019re running out of time. Thank you for being so generous. Are you profitable right now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We are very close to profitable.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>Like a dollar away or like a million dollars away?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019m not going to answer that question, but we\u2019re very close to profitable. I feel very good about our operating leverage as well.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>What\u2019s the runway to being profitable?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019m not going to answer that question, but I feel really good about where we are at, and what we will deliver this year.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>The reason I ask about profitability is that profitability is usually what allows you to drive growth, or you can choose to be really unprofitable and drive a lot more growth. Are you looking at more acquisitions? Are you looking to be acquired? How is this going to work for you?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">On the acquisition side \u2014 well, one on the growth side, I think it\u2019s just good to state. For growth, total revenue, we grew at 40% last year. Ads, we grew at over 35%; sub-revenue, we grew at over 50%. And when we look at our fixed cost to recurring revenue, we\u2019re in a really solid place.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">And we also look at revenue per head, just to think about structurally whether or not the organization is lean and driving operational excellence.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We\u2019re able to drive top line growth with real cost discipline in order to create a system that is scalable over the course of time. That\u2019s why I feel good about being very close to profitable and the goal of that this year. Related to acquisitions, we\u2019re actually always thinking about various brands that could be additive to the overall portfolio. As I mentioned before, we\u2019ve done a few acquihires prior to in order, and the investment thesis behind those acquihires was really to break into a new category.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">We did that with Marion Maneker coming over from Substack in order to break into the business of art, through to the acquisition of retail diaries in order to drive more coverage for the readers and the subscribers that we had with Lauren Sherman\u2019s line sheet. Those are more like tuck-ins and smaller acquisitions.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">There are transformational acquisitions like Air Mail where that is additive to the collective portfolio, and to the piece that you were getting at before, where we see that there\u2019s opportunity certainly for bundling and for access of readership across the various media brands.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>One of the reasons I ask about acquisitions is we live in a time of media mergers, like massive earth-shattering media mergers. In acquiring Air Mail, I think you have Jeff Zucker on your cap table now, because he was an investor in Air Mail. There are rumors that he wants to build a big thing. He wants to buy Versant and have a newsletter division and run a big news operation again, like he had at CNN. Is that something you\u2019ve talked about? Is that something you would entertain?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I\u2019m not going to talk about who\u2019s on our cap table.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I\u2019m just curious.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">I love the curiosity.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>What\u2019s next for Puck? What should people be looking for?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">A few different things. First, the investments that we\u2019ve made in DC around both our Washington correspondent with Leigh Ann [Caldwell], the experiential business that we have there, you\u2019re going to continue to see more and more emphasis in our dedication to that market. Same thing with AI and with tech, the launch of that vertical this past year, at a moment in time that we went AI-first instead of tech-first for very specific reasons. You\u2019ll continue to see more from us there. A lot of folks in the industry all migrated really quickly to video. I\u2019ve been in the media landscape for quite some time and I believe deeply in video, but I also believe deeply in doing it right and doing it well. We\u2019re spending time thinking about what that means for our talent. What does it mean for our brand? What does it mean for our portfolio? So more to come there.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><strong>I can do another full hour on how you plan to monetize video, but I won\u2019t keep you any longer. You have been very generous and very game to answer the questions. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for being on <\/strong><strong><em>Decoder<\/em><\/strong><strong>, Sarah.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _17nnmdya _1xwtict1\">Thank you. I appreciate it as well. Have a great day.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\"><em><sub>Questions or comments about this episode? Hit us up at decoder@theverge.com. We really do read every email!<\/sub><\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--block-placement _1o279nj1 _1o279nj0 duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<div class=\"duet--article--action-box _1ymtmqpj _1ymtmqpz yapvud2 yapvud0\">\n<div class=\"yapvud5 yapvud3\">\n<h2 class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup yapvud6\">Decoder with Nilay Patel<\/h2>\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup\">A podcast from <em>The Verge<\/em> about big ideas and other problems.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><a class=\"duet--cta--button _1f7jm892 _1f7jm890 yapvud9 yapvud7\" href=\"https:\/\/pod.link\/decoder\"><span>SUBSCRIBE NOW!<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--article--article-body-component\">\n<p class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup duet--article--standard-paragraph _1ymtmqpi _17nnmdy1 _17nnmdy0 _1xwtict1\">\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"tly2fw0\"><span class=\"tly2fw2\"><strong>Follow topics and authors<\/strong> from this story to see more like this in 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_10nsm932c\">\n<div class=\"_10nsm930 _10nsm931r\" data-concert=\"medium_rectangle_variable\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1xql9yl2 _1xql9yl5 _1xql9yl8\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--header-pattern _1ymtmqpg _1xql9yl7\">\n<div class=\"mq7s703\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--page-header wh8b410\">\n<div class=\"wh8b41i wh8b41f\">\n<h2 class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup wh8b41n wh8b41m _1xwtict2\">Most Popular<\/h2>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"sticky-nav-trigger\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"mq7s704\">\n<div class=\"_1joemdy0\">\n<div class=\"_1joemdyd _1vx82920\">Most Popular<\/div>\n<ol class=\"_1joemdy1\">\n<li class=\"_1joemdy4 _1joemdy3\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\/910537\/hisense-ur9-rgb-led-tv-review\">\n<div class=\"_1joemdya _1joemdy9\">The Hisense UR9 is a great first shot against OLED\u2019s bow<\/div>\n<p><\/a><\/p>\n<div class=\"_1joemdy7 _1joemdy6 _1ymtmqpz\"><\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li class=\"_1joemdy4 _1joemdy3\"><a 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iconic phone ever\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/WE500_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto4\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/910725\/western-electric-500-att-version-history\">How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto5 _184mfton _184mfto8 _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" 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class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto5 _184mfton _184mfto8 _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The case for banning cookie banners\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0407_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto4\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/907919\/ban-cookie-banners-gemini-maps-vergecast\">The case for banning cookie banners<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto5 _184mfton _184mfto8 _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins wants data centers in space\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD-Chuck-Robbins-Cisco.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto4\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/906727\/cisco-ceo-chuck-robbins-data-centers-space-ai-elon-musk-interview\">Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins wants data centers in space<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _184mfto0 _1lkmsmo3\">\n<div class=\"_184mfto5 _184mfton _184mfto8 _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How the Amazon Echo learned to talk \u2014 and listen\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VRH_ECHO_Site.png?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_184mfto4\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/907146\/amazon-echo-alexa-version-history\">How the Amazon Echo learned to talk \u2014 and listen<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1owd142\">\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrj _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/WE500_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/WE500_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/910725\/western-electric-500-att-version-history\">How AT&amp;T created the most iconic phone ever<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-12T13:28:46+00:00\">Apr 12<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Fear and loathing at OpenAI\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0410_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Fear and loathing at OpenAI\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0410_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/909621\/openai-sam-altman-drama-vergecast\">Fear and loathing at OpenAI<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-10T12:23:18+00:00\">Apr 10<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_0409.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD_0409.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/909042\/ai-monetization-cliff-anthropic-openai-profitable-ai-existential-moment\">The AI industry\u2019s race for profits is now existential<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-09T14:00:00+00:00\">Apr 9<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The case for banning cookie banners\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0407_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"The case for banning cookie banners\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VST_0407_Site.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/907919\/ban-cookie-banners-gemini-maps-vergecast\">The case for banning cookie banners<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-07T13:02:43+00:00\">Apr 7<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins wants data centers in space\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD-Chuck-Robbins-Cisco.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins wants data centers in space\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/DCD-Chuck-Robbins-Cisco.jpg?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"_10f040q1 _10f040q4\"><title>Play<\/title><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/906727\/cisco-ceo-chuck-robbins-data-centers-space-ai-elon-musk-interview\">Cisco CEO Chuck Robbins wants data centers in space<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>Nilay Patel<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-06T15:15:00+00:00\">Apr 6<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr1 _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrk _1ufh7nrl _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nr7 _1ufh7nr6 _1ufh7nrc _1ufh7nrh _10f040q3\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How the Amazon Echo learned to talk \u2014 and listen\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrf x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VRH_ECHO_Site.png?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=16.666666666667%2C0%2C66.666666666667%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"How the Amazon Echo learned to talk \u2014 and listen\" data-chromatic=\"ignore\" loading=\"lazy\" data-nimg=\"fill\" class=\"_1ufh7nrg x271pn0\" style=\"position:absolute;height:100%;width:100%;left:0;top:0;right:0;bottom:0;color:transparent;background-size:cover;background-position:50% 50%;background-repeat:no-repeat;)\" src=\"https:\/\/platform.theverge.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/2\/2026\/04\/VRG_VRH_ECHO_Site.png?quality=90&amp;strip=all&amp;crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&amp;w=2400\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class><\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r53 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/podcast\/907146\/amazon-echo-alexa-version-history\">How the Amazon Echo learned to talk \u2014 and listen<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwjd _2xqpwj0\"><span><span class=\"_1lldluw2 _1xwtict5\"><span><span>David Pierce<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp2 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5 _1ymtmqps\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-05T12:24:45+00:00\">Apr 5<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--ad--native-ad-linkset _8tvx5m4 _8tvx5m5 _8tvx5ma hidden\" data-native-ad-id=\"container\">\n<div>\n<div class=\"visually-hidden\">\n<div class=\"dynamic-native-ad-native_ad_linkset_link\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/\" aria-label=\"Advertisement\"><\/p>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_8tvx5m7\"><span data-native-ad-id=\"preamble\" class=\"_8tvx5m8 _8tvx5m9\">Advertiser Content From<\/span><\/p>\n<div><img data-native-ad-id=\"logo\" src alt=\"Sponsor Logo\" class=\"_8tvx5mg\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p class=\"_8tvx5mj\" data-native-ad-id=\"title\">This is the title for the native ad<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"n5bh2k6\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--header-pattern mq7s702\">\n<div class=\"mq7s703\">\n<div class=\"duet--layout--page-header wh8b410\">\n<div class=\"wh8b41j wh8b41f\">\n<h2 class=\"duet--article--dangerously-set-cms-markup wh8b41o wh8b41m _1xwtict2\">Top Stories<\/h2>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"sticky-nav-trigger\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"mq7s704\">\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrj _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-13T11:00:00+00:00\">11:00 AM UTC<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\/910834\/neuralink-bcis-bet\">Did Neuralink make the wrong bet?<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-13T13:00:00+00:00\">Two hours ago<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/science\/910326\/iran-strait-hormuz-fertilizer-feedstock-food-crisis\">The Strait of Hormuz blockade is causing a slow-moving food crisis<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-13T12:15:00+00:00\">12:15 PM UTC<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/games\/910218\/roblox-age-verification-check-games-kids-select-accounts\">Roblox will need age verification to make sure you\u2019re at least 9 years old<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-12T11:00:00+00:00\">Apr 12<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/tech\/910061\/ricoh-gr-iv-monochrome-review\">Allow me to explain why I love this camera that can\u2019t shoot color<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-12T12:00:00+00:00\">Apr 12<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/column\/910019\/ai-coding-wars-openai-google-anthropic\">The AI code wars are heating up<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"duet--content-cards--content-card _1ufh7nr0 _1lkmsmo3 _1ufh7nrk _1ufh7nrl _1ufh7nr5\">\n<div class=\"_1ufh7nri\">\n<div>\n<div>\n<div class>\n<div class=\"_2xqpwj4 _2xqpwj0\"><span class=\"duet--article--timestamp tvl9dp7 tvl9dp0 _1xwtict5\"><time datetime=\"2026-04-13T15:45:46+00:00\">5 seconds ago<\/time><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div>\n<div class=\"_1xwtict9 _1pm20r57 _1pm20r50\"><a class=\"_1lkmsmo0 _1lkmsmo4 _1lkmsmo5\" href=\"https:\/\/www.theverge.com\/transportation\/911085\/slate-truck-ev-fundraise-twg-global-bezos\">Slate raises $650 million to make its budget electric truck<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/main><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Podcasts Close Podcasts Posts from this topic will be added to your daily email digest and your homepage feed. 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