{"id":1806431,"date":"2026-03-04T13:32:00","date_gmt":"2026-03-04T10:32:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/?p=1806431"},"modified":"2026-03-04T13:32:00","modified_gmt":"2026-03-04T10:32:00","slug":"catherine-opie-on-perverts-heated-rivalry-and-photographing-neo-nazis","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/?p=1806431","title":{"rendered":"Catherine Opie on \u2018perverts\u2019, Heated Rivalry and photographing neo-Nazis"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>[analyse_image type=&#8221;featured&#8221; src=&#8221;https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1200\/0-405-2100-1400\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433996.jpg&#8221;]<\/p>\n<article class=\"main-article longread\">\n<div class=\"article-main-content article-wrapper has-media-but-its-an-image\" data-status=\"loaded\" data-primary-article=\"true\" data-url=\"\/art-photography\/article\/69799\/1\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen-npg-exhibition-london-interview-photography\" data-article-id=\"69799\">\n<header class=\"article-header has-portrait-image no-media\">\n<div class=\"wrapper dg-max-width\">\n<div class=\"inner\">\n<figure class=\"main-img has-figcaption\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"0.75\" data-template=\"Longread Article\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Pig Pen by Catherine Opie, 1993 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"2794\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1280\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433996.jpg\" width=\"2100\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"inner\"><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<aside class=\"meta\">\n<div class=\"inner\"><time datetime=\"2026-03-04T13:32:00+00:00\" class=\"timestamp\" title=\"04 March 2026\"><span class=\"month\">DateInMeta<\/span>\u00a0<br \/>\n<span class=\"day\" data-day=\"4\">4,<\/span>\u00a0<br \/>\n<span class=\"year\">2026<\/span><\/time><\/div>\n<\/aside>\n<div class=\"titles\">\n<div class=\"tags\">\n<div class=\"sections\"><a class=\"category vertical vertical - art-photography\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\">Art &amp; Photography<\/a><br \/>\n\/<br \/>\n<a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/q-and-a\">Q+A<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<h1 class=\"title\"><span>Catherine Opie on \u2018perverts\u2019, Heated Rivalry and <span class=\"nowrap\">photographing neo-Nazis<\/span><\/span><\/h1>\n<div class=\"standfirst\">\n<h2>As her major exhibition, To Be Seen, opens at the National Portrait Gallery, we talk to the radical queer artist about the challenging times we\u2019re living through \u2013 and how <span class=\"nowrap\">we win<\/span><\/h2>\n<\/div>\n<p><time datetime=\"2026-03-04T13:32:00+00:00\" class=\"timestamp\" title=\"04 March 2026\"><span class=\"month\">March<\/span>\u00a0<br \/>\n<span class=\"day\" data-day=\"4\">4,<\/span>\u00a0<br \/>\n<span class=\"year\">2026<\/span><\/time><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"tags\">\n<div class=\"sections\"><a class=\"category vertical - art-photography\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\">Art &amp; Photography<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/q-and-a\">Q+A<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p><time datetime=\"2026-03-04T13:32:00+00:00\" class=\"timestamp\" title=\"04 March 2026\"><span class=\"month\">March<\/span>\u00a0<br \/>\n<span class=\"day\" data-day=\"4\">4,<\/span>\u00a0<br \/>\n<span class=\"year\">2026<\/span><\/time><\/p>\n<div class=\"providers\">\n<div class=\"contributors\"><span class=\"contributor\" data-contributor-role=\"Text\"><span class=\"contributor-role\">Text<\/span><a class=\"contributor-name\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/user\/Alex\">Alex Peters<\/a><\/span><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/header>\n<div class=\"article-body-container\">\n<div class=\"article-body wrapper\">\n<div class=\"dazed-gallery has-17-images \">\n<div class=\"inner\">\n<header>\n<div class=\"info\"><span class=\"heading\">Catherine Opie, To <span class=\"nowrap\">Be Seen<\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<\/header>\n<div class=\"gallery\">\n<div class=\"gallery-thumbs\">\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/0\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Judie Bamber by Catherine Opie, 1993 &#169; Catherine O\" class=\"img\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433992.jpg\" width=\"3000\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/1\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"AB101 Demonstration by Catherine Opie, 1991 &#169; Cath\" class=\"img\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-0-3000-2000\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433982.jpg\" width=\"3000\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/2\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Abdul by Catherine Opie, 2008 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"1482\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-339-2223-1482\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433983.jpg\" width=\"2223\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/3\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Alistair Fate by Catherine Opie, 1994 &#169; Catherine \" class=\"img\" height=\"1605\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-0-2408-1605\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433984.jpg\" width=\"2408\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/4\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Angela (boots) by Catherine Opie, 1992 &#169; Catherine\" class=\"img\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-252-1998-1332\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433985.jpeg\" width=\"1998\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/5\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Bo by Catherine Opie, 1994 &#169; Catherine Opie (1)\" class=\"img\" height=\"998\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-348-1497-998\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433986.jpg\" width=\"1497\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-footer\">Gallery \/ 17 images<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><span>Like the rest of us, Catherine Opie has been watching <\/span><em><span>Heated Rivalry<\/span><\/em><span>. It was her son who first told her about it, while they were spending Christmas together in the UK, where Opie had been preparing for her upcoming exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery. When she suggested they watch it together in the hotel room, he protested that it\u2019s not the kind of show you watch with your mother (she protested back: \u201cbut I don\u2019t understand, you made me watch <\/span><em><span>Game of Thrones<\/span><\/em><span> with you!\u201d).<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>While you can appreciate her son\u2019s hesitancy, for the rest of us, Opie would be a dream companion to watch and dissect the hit television show with, being, as it is, at the intersection of so many of the themes the photographer has grappled with, investigated and deconstructed over her decades-long career. When it comes to questions of masculinity, the performance of gender, family, sexuality and kink; representations of queerness, particularly those missing from the mainstream; the body and identity; power structures; and the cultural landscape of America, she has explored and photographed it all.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Many of these photographs are included in <\/span><em><span>To Be Seen<\/span><\/em><span>, Opie\u2019s first large museum exhibition in Britain. Opening March 5, the gallery will showcase key works from across her career, spanning portraits of Los Angeles\u2019 1990s leather dyke scene to high school American football players. While the photographs and their subjects are diverse and wide-ranging, tying them together is fundamental to Opie\u2019s mission of challenging who gets to be seen, and her refusal to compromise her spirit, vision and fight. \u201cThey\u2019re constantly trying to take away our right of expression and freedom in different ways,\u201d says Opie. \u201cThe great thing about being an artist is embracing your own radicality and living your life as honestly as you can with powers that try to suppress you.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Below, we talk to the legendary artist about being a queer elder, her most challenging commissions, and <em>To Be Seen.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<figure class=\"inline-img expandable dev-view-hide\" data-img=\"476925bb-b0ae-4353-9625-b3c900ef607f\" data-src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/2000\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433985.jpeg\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"square\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"1\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"square\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Angela (boots) by Catherine Opie, 1992 &#169; Catherine\" class=\"img\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1600\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433985.jpeg\" width=\"2000\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"caption\">Catherine Opie, Angela <span class=\"nowrap\">(boots), 1992<\/span><\/span><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><strong>Have you been following the story with the <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/edition.cnn.com\/2026\/02\/24\/sport\/video\/usa-mens-hockey-team-controversy-locker-room-trump-call-digvid\"><strong>US men\u2019s ice hockey team<\/strong><\/a><strong>?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> Oh, god yes. I wish the men had aligned with the women\u2019s team. I think that would have been really nice in this moment of intense misogyny that\u2019s happening throughout the world, and as women are constantly fighting for their voices. But you know, masculinity and hockey \u2013 even though you can have a very popular gay hockey series that the whole world loves, apparently that doesn\u2019t seep in around what it is to be good to women and be feminists. Every man should learn how to be a feminist now and what that really means.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>That world of masculinity in sports and athletes is one you\u2019ve explored in your work.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> Oh, definitely with high school football. And that\u2019s what I wanted to talk about [with the series] \u2013 that this kind of masculinity is just as performed in young men as it is performed in butches. When you look at some of those images of high school football players, the vulnerability comes through, and then the humanity comes through. It was the time when American football players were going off to war in Iraq and Afghanistan if they weren\u2019t getting college scholarships, and I was thinking about it as an extension of the American landscape.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Now I\u2019m doing masculinity in a new character, where I\u2019ve invented the lesbian cowboy who\u2019s going to rewrite the wrongs of masculinity in the history of the American West, because of shows like Taylor Sheridan\u2019s <\/span><em><span>Yellowstone<\/span><\/em><span>. If I were ever to be on a panel with Taylor Sheridan, my first question to him would be, \u2018Do women need to be beaten to be strong?\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Did those portraits give you insight into how cis straight men perform their gender? Because it\u2019s just as much a performance for them.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>Well, it is, and that\u2019s the beauty of it, right? Everybody talks about the queer body as this kind of performed thing. But gender is always performed. I would argue that the MAGA women are performing drag queen gender right now. And to their argument about no trans rights \u2013 aren\u2019t they transitioning too? What part of their faces is not trans?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And so again, [it\u2019s about] how we attach these ideas of hypocrisy and language onto ideas of identity. That\u2019s partly what my work does. Is it not only about bearing witness and understanding what community is and visibility and who gets to be seen, but it also hopefully allows these other questions of how we end up creating moments where we have hate in our hearts, where we\u2019re not dealing with everybody from a humanistic level. And so I\u2019m just trying to constantly bring it back to: we are all the same species. And so, can we stop thinking about it in these nationalistic ideas of who belongs and who doesn\u2019t belong?<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<figure class=\"inline-img expandable dev-view-hide\" data-img=\"bf8dcf82-5c18-4936-9003-b3c900ef5be9\" data-src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/2000\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433983.jpg\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"0.74\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Abdul by Catherine Opie, 2008 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"3000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1600\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433983.jpg\" width=\"2225\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"caption\">Catherine Opie, <span class=\"nowrap\">Abdul, 2008<\/span><\/span><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><strong>You started photographing as a way of forging bonds and making friends in new communities. Do you still use photography as a way of creating bonds, now that we\u2019re so divided?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>I\u2019m utterly in love with my medium of choice. I started it at nine, I\u2019ll be 65 in April and I\u2019ve spent my whole life thinking about this one thing. I think it is important to understand what work does and how to bring people together.\u00a0<\/span><span>Even if I was sent on assignment from the <\/span><em><span>New York Times<\/span><\/em><span>, and they\u2019d say, \u2018Well, you\u2019re going to photograph this anti-abortion kid\u2019 or Matthew Hale for <\/span><em><span>Spin Magazine<\/span><\/em><span>, who was one of the worst white supremacists. I would get sent to these places, and I think they thought that I would take a Diane Arbus kind of portrait; that there would be some humiliation because they\u2019re sending a leather dyke to go deal with this person.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>But no, I was making [Hale] sit on his childhood bed, which was a twin bed in his parents\u2019 house. Now that was a way of bringing him down, versus looking all powerful in that red room of swastikas. I took him out of that room and made him sit on his childhood bed \u2013 and how do we then think about that human being? This human being is still sleeping in a twin-sized childhood bed in his parents\u2019 house with his little Nazi room. Can we, instead of hating him, have a moment of empathy? Are we allowed to do that? Who are we allowed to have empathy for?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>How did you approach that sort of assignment? Did you ever think about saying no to any of them?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> I\u2019ve only said no to one, and I won\u2019t say who it is.<\/span><span> I needed to keep making money. You take the jobs because they\u2019re interesting. It makes you a better photographer. Editorial, definitely, is very different from asking my friends to come over to my living room. It makes you better at what you\u2019re doing. But I didn\u2019t really say no because it was so exciting to be asked to photograph for the <\/span><em><span>New York Times Magazine<\/span><\/em><span> in my 30s that I didn\u2019t really want to turn that down.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Can you tell me more about the lesbian cowboy work that you\u2019re doing?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>She came out of the game <\/span><em><span>Red Dead Redemption<\/span><\/em><span>. <\/span><span>I stole it from my son during the pandemic and got obsessed with it. And then I started really thinking about, well, how are they teaching American history to the mainly young boys who are playing this game? I became really obsessed with what the meaning of this is for young boys. So I decided instead of being Arthur Morgan, who\u2019s the protagonist, that it would be the lesbian cowboy and she would rewrite the wrongs of masculinity in the American West to align it through a feminist voice.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I\u2019m hoping to get people like Kristin Stewart or Eileen Myles on to do a talk show. I want to bring all of these amazing people in on this talk show where the lesbian cowboy asks them questions about the history of masculinity and how do butches play with that? Are we only doing dress up, or do we want to be a cowboy? How do you differentiate the idea of playing a persona and becoming a persona? So I want to explore those things, given how incredibly tough it is right now in my country.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<figure class=\"inline-img expandable dev-view-hide\" data-img=\"3b5f25e9-758f-4676-be61-b3c900ef6cdd\" data-src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1344\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433989.jpg\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"0.45\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Diana by Catherine Opie, 2012 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"3000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1344\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433989.jpg\" width=\"1344\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"caption\">Catherine Opie, <span class=\"nowrap\">Diana, 2012<\/span><\/span><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><strong>In a <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69160\/1\/catherine-opie-dyke-deck-moca-lesbian-playing-cards-photography\"><strong>previous interview with Dazed<\/strong><\/a><strong>, you connected the lesbian cowboy with the activists in Portland using inflatables to protest ICE and the idea of joy in activism.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>I think in the same way we all watch Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart \u2013 the idea of humour within politics as a way for us to connect to these atrocities happening that are baffling to us and that we have no control over. I think using a persona or humour to unpack something creates a different way that people can enter it. If I\u2019m just the angry lesbian yelling at you, that\u2019s not going to really do anything, because that&#8217;s exactly what\u2019s happening within the MAGA movement. And so to be more theoretical and philosophical, it\u2019s a way to have fun and play a bit, but also be incredibly serious with really important things to say.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Going back to the idea of resistance, I think Minnesota has done this beautifully as well. Minnesota is singing, they\u2019re out there where the ICE agents are and they\u2019re singing. They\u2019re asking them, \u2018Is this who you want to be?\u2019 through song. You know, I understand why things go into violence, because violence is what\u2019s being put on us. But I think the more that we can resist in a non-violent way, to go back to those MLK moments, and what nonviolent protests mean, and the collectivity of it, we will win. We actually will win.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>One of your most enduring pieces of work is <\/strong><strong><em>Self-Portrait\/Pervert <\/em><\/strong><strong>(1994). So many people have seen that final image, but what can you remember of the process of making it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> The needles took about an hour. And then \u2018Pervert\u2019 took a little over an hour for the cutting. It was done with 14 to 15 people in my studio with food laid out. And it was a collective moment, which you don\u2019t see in the photograph at all. It was total community. My two best friends, Melissa and Joe, who I have portraits of in the early work and also are in the <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69160\/1\/catherine-opie-dyke-deck-moca-lesbian-playing-cards-photography\">Dyke Deck<\/a><\/em>, were professional piercers, so they did all the needlework.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I was taking what was private within the dungeons and making something very public as a piece in protest to being called a pervert. In the same way as <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/www.moma.org\/audio\/playlist\/298\/4441\"><span>Steakhouse tattooing \u2018dyke\u2019 on the back of her neck<\/span><\/a><span>. All I know is I come from one of the most loving, consensual communities that you seem to want to fear and put laws on my body. But this is one of the most amazing groups of people. And so for me, \u2018Pervert\u2019 is my Henry the 8th. It is that moment that I embodied what language is being put on me. But what was around me was people holding my hands and being behind me and totally getting me through making that piece. It was a community.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>How have you felt carrying that word on your body for 20 years?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span>So it\u2019s been interesting to hold it. It\u2019s something that I wouldn\u2019t ever take away, but it\u2019s also something that I probably would not make today as an artist. And I think that\u2019s a really interesting thing to think about. I made that within a community, at a time when I was not an exhibiting artist. The first place that \u2018Pervert\u2019 ever showed was the 1995 Whitney Biennial, and I had to go home to my parents and show them the portrait and tell them that I was a leather dyke and come out in a totally different way. And there were problems. I asked them not to show it to my brother\u2019s wife because she was a Christian nationalist, and I didn\u2019t think that she would let me see her daughter anymore, my only niece. So the thing about \u2018Pervert\u2019 that was hard for me was the assumptions that people had on me as a human being because of making that piece without knowing me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>This was of the time and you have to understand blood, you have to understand Aids, you have to understand the culture wars, what it was like for Jesse Helms to hold up Mapplethorpe photographs on the floor of Congress. You have to understand why these things were made within the culture wars of America, that the NEA closed down, no more giving artists grants, because, oh God, they could make something like \u2018Pervert\u2019 with the money from the government. So if people really understood more of what was happening within that time, historically, \u2018Pervert\u2019 is a perfectly well-placed piece. But I think the problem is that people get scared of \u2018Pervert\u2019. It really unsettles them. And I always am thinking, for the woman out there who has had an enormous amount of plastic surgery, what is the difference between \u2018Pervert\u2019 and that? Again, the hypocrisies.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>You did <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69160\/1\/catherine-opie-dyke-deck-moca-lesbian-playing-cards-photography\"><strong>an interview with Dazed in December<\/strong><\/a><strong> where you said you were reflecting on your role as a queer elder, and how you can be useful and calm people\u2019s fears during this time. Where are you with that right now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> Well, I\u2019m gonna stand here at my opening and welcome the public and hug every queer that needs to be hugged by me, because they\u2019re struggling so much with the times that we\u2019re living in. As an elder, I\u2019m just going to continue to represent and forge forth the path of what it is to live in fear of government retaliation, of laws that create harm, and try to allow them to understand that it&#8217;s actually okay to be who you are. Mama Cathy\u2019s here \u2013 that\u2019s what my son calls me, Mama Cathy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><em>Catherine Opie\u2019s <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.npg.org.uk\/whatson\/exhibitions\/2026\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\">To Be Seen<\/a><em> is running at the National Gallery, London, from 5 March until 31 May 2026.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"article-series header article-series tags\"><span class=\"heading\">More on these topics:<\/span><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\">Art &amp; Photography<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/q-and-a\">Q+A<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/catherine-opie\">Catherine Opie<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/queer-culture\">Queer Culture<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/lesbians\">Lesbians<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/photographers\">Photographers<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"image-navigation\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/news\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img one\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">News<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/fashion\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img two\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Fashion<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/music\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img three\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Music<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/film-tv\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img four\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Film &amp; TV<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69799\/1\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen-npg-exhibition-london-interview-photography#features\" class=\"image-navigation__img five\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Features<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/beauty\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img six\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Beauty<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/life-culture\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img seven\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Life &amp; Culture<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/\" class=\"image-navigation__img eight\"><\/p>\n<div class=\"image-navigation__wrapper\">\n<h3 class=\"image-navigation__title\">Art &amp; Photography<\/h3>\n<\/div>\n<p><\/a><\/div>\n<\/article>\n<div class=\"article-body wrapper\">\n<div class=\"dazed-gallery has-17-images \">\n<div class=\"inner\">\n<header>\n<div class=\"info\"><span class=\"heading\">Catherine Opie, To <span class=\"nowrap\">Be Seen<\/span><\/span><\/div>\n<\/header>\n<div class=\"gallery\">\n<div class=\"gallery-thumbs\">\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/0\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Judie Bamber by Catherine Opie, 1993 &#169; Catherine O\" class=\"img\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433992.jpg\" width=\"3000\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/1\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"AB101 Demonstration by Catherine Opie, 1991 &#169; Cath\" class=\"img\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-0-3000-2000\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433982.jpg\" width=\"3000\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/2\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Abdul by Catherine Opie, 2008 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"1482\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-339-2223-1482\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433983.jpg\" width=\"2223\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/3\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Alistair Fate by Catherine Opie, 1994 &#169; Catherine \" class=\"img\" height=\"1605\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-0-2408-1605\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433984.jpg\" width=\"2408\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/4\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Angela (boots) by Catherine Opie, 1992 &#169; Catherine\" class=\"img\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-252-1998-1332\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433985.jpeg\" width=\"1998\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-thumb\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/gallery\/36535\/5\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"landscape\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Bo by Catherine Opie, 1994 &#169; Catherine Opie (1)\" class=\"img\" height=\"998\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/320\/0-348-1497-998\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433986.jpg\" width=\"1497\"><\/span><\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"gallery-footer\">Gallery \/ 17 images<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><span>Like the rest of us, Catherine Opie has been watching <\/span><em><span>Heated Rivalry<\/span><\/em><span>. It was her son who first told her about it, while they were spending Christmas together in the UK, where Opie had been preparing for her upcoming exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery. When she suggested they watch it together in the hotel room, he protested that it\u2019s not the kind of show you watch with your mother (she protested back: \u201cbut I don\u2019t understand, you made me watch <\/span><em><span>Game of Thrones<\/span><\/em><span> with you!\u201d).<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>While you can appreciate her son\u2019s hesitancy, for the rest of us, Opie would be a dream companion to watch and dissect the hit television show with, being, as it is, at the intersection of so many of the themes the photographer has grappled with, investigated and deconstructed over her decades-long career. When it comes to questions of masculinity, the performance of gender, family, sexuality and kink; representations of queerness, particularly those missing from the mainstream; the body and identity; power structures; and the cultural landscape of America, she has explored and photographed it all.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Many of these photographs are included in <\/span><em><span>To Be Seen<\/span><\/em><span>, Opie\u2019s first large museum exhibition in Britain. Opening March 5, the gallery will showcase key works from across her career, spanning portraits of Los Angeles\u2019 1990s leather dyke scene to high school American football players. While the photographs and their subjects are diverse and wide-ranging, tying them together is fundamental to Opie\u2019s mission of challenging who gets to be seen, and her refusal to compromise her spirit, vision and fight. \u201cThey\u2019re constantly trying to take away our right of expression and freedom in different ways,\u201d says Opie. \u201cThe great thing about being an artist is embracing your own radicality and living your life as honestly as you can with powers that try to suppress you.\u201d\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Below, we talk to the legendary artist about being a queer elder, her most challenging commissions, and <em>To Be Seen.<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<figure class=\"inline-img expandable dev-view-hide\" data-img=\"476925bb-b0ae-4353-9625-b3c900ef607f\" data-src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/2000\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433985.jpeg\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"square\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"1\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"square\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Angela (boots) by Catherine Opie, 1992 &#169; Catherine\" class=\"img\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1600\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433985.jpeg\" width=\"2000\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"caption\">Catherine Opie, Angela <span class=\"nowrap\">(boots), 1992<\/span><\/span><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><strong>Have you been following the story with the <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/edition.cnn.com\/2026\/02\/24\/sport\/video\/usa-mens-hockey-team-controversy-locker-room-trump-call-digvid\"><strong>US men\u2019s ice hockey team<\/strong><\/a><strong>?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> Oh, god yes. I wish the men had aligned with the women\u2019s team. I think that would have been really nice in this moment of intense misogyny that\u2019s happening throughout the world, and as women are constantly fighting for their voices. But you know, masculinity and hockey \u2013 even though you can have a very popular gay hockey series that the whole world loves, apparently that doesn\u2019t seep in around what it is to be good to women and be feminists. Every man should learn how to be a feminist now and what that really means.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>That world of masculinity in sports and athletes is one you\u2019ve explored in your work.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> Oh, definitely with high school football. And that\u2019s what I wanted to talk about [with the series] \u2013 that this kind of masculinity is just as performed in young men as it is performed in butches. When you look at some of those images of high school football players, the vulnerability comes through, and then the humanity comes through. It was the time when American football players were going off to war in Iraq and Afghanistan if they weren\u2019t getting college scholarships, and I was thinking about it as an extension of the American landscape.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Now I\u2019m doing masculinity in a new character, where I\u2019ve invented the lesbian cowboy who\u2019s going to rewrite the wrongs of masculinity in the history of the American West, because of shows like Taylor Sheridan\u2019s <\/span><em><span>Yellowstone<\/span><\/em><span>. If I were ever to be on a panel with Taylor Sheridan, my first question to him would be, \u2018Do women need to be beaten to be strong?\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Did those portraits give you insight into how cis straight men perform their gender? Because it\u2019s just as much a performance for them.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>Well, it is, and that\u2019s the beauty of it, right? Everybody talks about the queer body as this kind of performed thing. But gender is always performed. I would argue that the MAGA women are performing drag queen gender right now. And to their argument about no trans rights \u2013 aren\u2019t they transitioning too? What part of their faces is not trans?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And so again, [it\u2019s about] how we attach these ideas of hypocrisy and language onto ideas of identity. That\u2019s partly what my work does. Is it not only about bearing witness and understanding what community is and visibility and who gets to be seen, but it also hopefully allows these other questions of how we end up creating moments where we have hate in our hearts, where we\u2019re not dealing with everybody from a humanistic level. And so I\u2019m just trying to constantly bring it back to: we are all the same species. And so, can we stop thinking about it in these nationalistic ideas of who belongs and who doesn\u2019t belong?<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<figure class=\"inline-img expandable dev-view-hide\" data-img=\"bf8dcf82-5c18-4936-9003-b3c900ef5be9\" data-src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/2000\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433983.jpg\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"0.74\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Abdul by Catherine Opie, 2008 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"3000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1600\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433983.jpg\" width=\"2225\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"caption\">Catherine Opie, <span class=\"nowrap\">Abdul, 2008<\/span><\/span><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><strong>You started photographing as a way of forging bonds and making friends in new communities. Do you still use photography as a way of creating bonds, now that we\u2019re so divided?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>I\u2019m utterly in love with my medium of choice. I started it at nine, I\u2019ll be 65 in April and I\u2019ve spent my whole life thinking about this one thing. I think it is important to understand what work does and how to bring people together.\u00a0<\/span><span>Even if I was sent on assignment from the <\/span><em><span>New York Times<\/span><\/em><span>, and they\u2019d say, \u2018Well, you\u2019re going to photograph this anti-abortion kid\u2019 or Matthew Hale for <\/span><em><span>Spin Magazine<\/span><\/em><span>, who was one of the worst white supremacists. I would get sent to these places, and I think they thought that I would take a Diane Arbus kind of portrait; that there would be some humiliation because they\u2019re sending a leather dyke to go deal with this person.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>But no, I was making [Hale] sit on his childhood bed, which was a twin bed in his parents\u2019 house. Now that was a way of bringing him down, versus looking all powerful in that red room of swastikas. I took him out of that room and made him sit on his childhood bed \u2013 and how do we then think about that human being? This human being is still sleeping in a twin-sized childhood bed in his parents\u2019 house with his little Nazi room. Can we, instead of hating him, have a moment of empathy? Are we allowed to do that? Who are we allowed to have empathy for?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>How did you approach that sort of assignment? Did you ever think about saying no to any of them?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> I\u2019ve only said no to one, and I won\u2019t say who it is.<\/span><span> I needed to keep making money. You take the jobs because they\u2019re interesting. It makes you a better photographer. Editorial, definitely, is very different from asking my friends to come over to my living room. It makes you better at what you\u2019re doing. But I didn\u2019t really say no because it was so exciting to be asked to photograph for the <\/span><em><span>New York Times Magazine<\/span><\/em><span> in my 30s that I didn\u2019t really want to turn that down.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Can you tell me more about the lesbian cowboy work that you\u2019re doing?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>She came out of the game <\/span><em><span>Red Dead Redemption<\/span><\/em><span>. <\/span><span>I stole it from my son during the pandemic and got obsessed with it. And then I started really thinking about, well, how are they teaching American history to the mainly young boys who are playing this game? I became really obsessed with what the meaning of this is for young boys. So I decided instead of being Arthur Morgan, who\u2019s the protagonist, that it would be the lesbian cowboy and she would rewrite the wrongs of masculinity in the American West to align it through a feminist voice.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I\u2019m hoping to get people like Kristin Stewart or Eileen Myles on to do a talk show. I want to bring all of these amazing people in on this talk show where the lesbian cowboy asks them questions about the history of masculinity and how do butches play with that? Are we only doing dress up, or do we want to be a cowboy? How do you differentiate the idea of playing a persona and becoming a persona? So I want to explore those things, given how incredibly tough it is right now in my country.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<figure class=\"inline-img expandable dev-view-hide\" data-img=\"3b5f25e9-758f-4676-be61-b3c900ef6cdd\" data-src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1344\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433989.jpg\" data-img-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\" data-img-aspect-ratio=\"0.45\"><span class=\"has-css-custom-props image-container\" data-aspect-ratio-type=\"portrait\"><span class=\"preserve-aspect-ratio\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Diana by Catherine Opie, 2012 &#169; Catherine Opie\" class=\"img\" height=\"3000\" src=\"https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1344\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433989.jpg\" width=\"1344\"><\/span><\/span><figcaption class=\"img-caption\"><span class=\"caption\">Catherine Opie, <span class=\"nowrap\">Diana, 2012<\/span><\/span><span class=\"credit\">\u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas <span class=\"nowrap\">Dane Gallery<\/span><\/span><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<div class=\"embed-content\" data-embed-type=\"raw-html\">\n<p><strong>In a <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69160\/1\/catherine-opie-dyke-deck-moca-lesbian-playing-cards-photography\"><strong>previous interview with Dazed<\/strong><\/a><strong>, you connected the lesbian cowboy with the activists in Portland using inflatables to protest ICE and the idea of joy in activism.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie: <\/strong><span>I think in the same way we all watch Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart \u2013 the idea of humour within politics as a way for us to connect to these atrocities happening that are baffling to us and that we have no control over. I think using a persona or humour to unpack something creates a different way that people can enter it. If I\u2019m just the angry lesbian yelling at you, that\u2019s not going to really do anything, because that&#8217;s exactly what\u2019s happening within the MAGA movement. And so to be more theoretical and philosophical, it\u2019s a way to have fun and play a bit, but also be incredibly serious with really important things to say.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Going back to the idea of resistance, I think Minnesota has done this beautifully as well. Minnesota is singing, they\u2019re out there where the ICE agents are and they\u2019re singing. They\u2019re asking them, \u2018Is this who you want to be?\u2019 through song. You know, I understand why things go into violence, because violence is what\u2019s being put on us. But I think the more that we can resist in a non-violent way, to go back to those MLK moments, and what nonviolent protests mean, and the collectivity of it, we will win. We actually will win.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>One of your most enduring pieces of work is <\/strong><strong><em>Self-Portrait\/Pervert <\/em><\/strong><strong>(1994). So many people have seen that final image, but what can you remember of the process of making it?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> The needles took about an hour. And then \u2018Pervert\u2019 took a little over an hour for the cutting. It was done with 14 to 15 people in my studio with food laid out. And it was a collective moment, which you don\u2019t see in the photograph at all. It was total community. My two best friends, Melissa and Joe, who I have portraits of in the early work and also are in the <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69160\/1\/catherine-opie-dyke-deck-moca-lesbian-playing-cards-photography\">Dyke Deck<\/a><\/em>, were professional piercers, so they did all the needlework.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I was taking what was private within the dungeons and making something very public as a piece in protest to being called a pervert. In the same way as <\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/www.moma.org\/audio\/playlist\/298\/4441\"><span>Steakhouse tattooing \u2018dyke\u2019 on the back of her neck<\/span><\/a><span>. All I know is I come from one of the most loving, consensual communities that you seem to want to fear and put laws on my body. But this is one of the most amazing groups of people. And so for me, \u2018Pervert\u2019 is my Henry the 8th. It is that moment that I embodied what language is being put on me. But what was around me was people holding my hands and being behind me and totally getting me through making that piece. It was a community.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>How have you felt carrying that word on your body for 20 years?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span>So it\u2019s been interesting to hold it. It\u2019s something that I wouldn\u2019t ever take away, but it\u2019s also something that I probably would not make today as an artist. And I think that\u2019s a really interesting thing to think about. I made that within a community, at a time when I was not an exhibiting artist. The first place that \u2018Pervert\u2019 ever showed was the 1995 Whitney Biennial, and I had to go home to my parents and show them the portrait and tell them that I was a leather dyke and come out in a totally different way. And there were problems. I asked them not to show it to my brother\u2019s wife because she was a Christian nationalist, and I didn\u2019t think that she would let me see her daughter anymore, my only niece. So the thing about \u2018Pervert\u2019 that was hard for me was the assumptions that people had on me as a human being because of making that piece without knowing me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>This was of the time and you have to understand blood, you have to understand Aids, you have to understand the culture wars, what it was like for Jesse Helms to hold up Mapplethorpe photographs on the floor of Congress. You have to understand why these things were made within the culture wars of America, that the NEA closed down, no more giving artists grants, because, oh God, they could make something like \u2018Pervert\u2019 with the money from the government. So if people really understood more of what was happening within that time, historically, \u2018Pervert\u2019 is a perfectly well-placed piece. But I think the problem is that people get scared of \u2018Pervert\u2019. It really unsettles them. And I always am thinking, for the woman out there who has had an enormous amount of plastic surgery, what is the difference between \u2018Pervert\u2019 and that? Again, the hypocrisies.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>You did <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69160\/1\/catherine-opie-dyke-deck-moca-lesbian-playing-cards-photography\"><strong>an interview with Dazed in December<\/strong><\/a><strong> where you said you were reflecting on your role as a queer elder, and how you can be useful and calm people\u2019s fears during this time. Where are you with that right now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Catherine Opie:<\/strong><span> Well, I\u2019m gonna stand here at my opening and welcome the public and hug every queer that needs to be hugged by me, because they\u2019re struggling so much with the times that we\u2019re living in. As an elder, I\u2019m just going to continue to represent and forge forth the path of what it is to live in fear of government retaliation, of laws that create harm, and try to allow them to understand that it&#8217;s actually okay to be who you are. Mama Cathy\u2019s here \u2013 that\u2019s what my son calls me, Mama Cathy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><em>Catherine Opie\u2019s <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.npg.org.uk\/whatson\/exhibitions\/2026\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen\">To Be Seen<\/a><em> is running at the National Gallery, London, from 5 March until 31 May 2026.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"article-series header article-series tags\"><span class=\"heading\">More on these topics:<\/span><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\">Art &amp; Photography<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/q-and-a\">Q+A<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/catherine-opie\">Catherine Opie<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/queer-culture\">Queer Culture<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/lesbians\">Lesbians<\/a><a class=\"series\" href=\"https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/tag\/photographers\">Photographers<\/a><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>[analyse_source url=&#8221;https:\/\/www.dazeddigital.com\/art-photography\/article\/69799\/1\/catherine-opie-to-be-seen-npg-exhibition-london-interview-photography&#8221;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>[analyse_image type=&#8221;featured&#8221; src=&#8221;https:\/\/images-prod.dazeddigital.com\/1200\/0-405-2100-1400\/azure\/dazed-prod\/1430\/3\/1433996.jpg&#8221;] \u00a9 Catherine Opie, courtesy Regen Projects, Los Angeles; Lehmann Maupin, New York, Hong Kong, London, and Seoul; Thomas Dane Gallery DateInMeta\u00a0 4,\u00a0 2026 Art &amp; Photography \/ Q+A Catherine Opie on \u2018perverts\u2019, Heated Rivalry and photographing neo-Nazis As her major exhibition, To Be Seen, opens at the National Portrait Gallery, we talk [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[226,76],"class_list":["post-1806431","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-politics","tag-crawlmanager","tag-dazeddigital-com"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1806431","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1806431"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1806431\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1806431"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1806431"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/analyse.optim.biz\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1806431"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}